Character Analysis: Hurin and Turin

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

After making a couple of PM's I've decided to start a new Charcter Anaysis thread on Hurin and Turin.

Hurin
Son of Galdor and Lord of Dor-lormin. He married Morwen, a kinswoman of Beren, and he fathered three children, Turin, Laliath and Nienor. He was close with his younger brother Huor and was rarely out of his company. They were guest of Tugon in Gondolin and were often abroard with Finrod Felagund and elves of Nargothrond. In the battle of Unnumbered Tears Huor was slain and Hurin slew 70 trolls before being captured and taken alive to Angband where he was tortured on the peak of Thangodrim, but never asked formercy for either him nor his kin. After being held captive for 28 years Morgoth released him. Then he found Morwen on the day of her death. He buried Morwen and went to Nargothrond where he found Mim the Petty Dwarf and slew him with one punch, thus fulfilling the promise of Beleg Strongbow. He abode for some time in Nargothrond before going to Doriath. In Doriath he gave King Thingol Nauglamir. He was then released from Morgoth's spells by Melian the Maia. He then left Doriath and died.

Turin
He's the eldest child of Hurin and Morwen. Unlike his fathers kin he was dark haired as was his mother's, Morwen, kin. After his father went away to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Dor-lomin was taken by Easterlings, and after time his mother sent him to Doriath into the keeping of Thingol and Melian. There he grew strong and became friends with Beleg Strongbow. He left Doriath after being unjustly accused of the murder of Searos of which he was later cleared. He then went with the exiles under the name Neithan the Wronged. The exiles captured Mim the Petty Dwarf who led them to his home on Amon Rûdh. Mim betrayed the where abouts of the exiles to orcs who slew most of Turins group and captured Turin. Turin was rescued by Beleg and Gwindor (an elf of Nargothrond that had been captured by Morgoth). As they were freeing Turin in his sleep they roused him and he ttok up Beleg's sword and slew Beleg, thinking him a foe. He was then taken by Gwindor to Nargothrond where he took up the name Mormegil. There he was honoured and Ordreth's daughter Findulias fell in love with Turin. During the Battle of Tumhalad Gwindor was mortally wounded and Turin put under Glaurung's spell. After the destruction of Nargothrond he entered Brethil where he discovered Findulias was dead. He then lived among the Men under the name of Turumbar and he wedded Nienel. When the shadow of Glaurung entered Brethil he with 3 other men went out with the purpose to kill Glaurung. One of the men, Dorlas turned back and the other, Hunthor was killed. He then killed Glaurung and on returning to the men of Brethil found the Nienel was infact Nienor his sister and she was dead. Then he slew Brandir who bought these tidings to him. Returning to where Neinor had slain died he to killed himself.

[Beren3000]

I'll start the discussion off (if you don't mind, TD ) with this question:
Was Hurin as proud as Turin? IOW, was Turin's pride hereditary or a product of Morgoth's curse?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

That's fine Beren. I forgot to post Discussion points.
Yes, I think that Hurin was as proud as Turin but also I think he was more stong willed than Turin. I think the evil (if you can call it that) was spread from Morgoth's curse and the spell of Glaurung. I think that Turin became fearless andhis feud with the servants of Morgoth more bitter when his father did not return from war and his land was captured by Easterlings. The pride of Hurin is showed when he lay Nauglamir and Thingols feet though that could have been through Morgoths curse and bitterness to.

[Durin1]

I also think that an aspect of this "pride" came from a general attitude of the House of Hador who were the most numerous and powerful of the 3 Houses.

Although, I also believe that the extent of how this Pride manifests itself peculiarly is particular to Hurin's kin. Morwen, Nienor and Turin all possess this character flaw, which ultimately always leads them to make wrong choices.

Hurin's Pride as one of the greatest of the House of Hador shows in how he will not ask mercy from Morgoth. Morgoth himself uses the flip-side of this Pride to turn it into an intrinsic weakness of Hurin's family.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Question: Was Turin's honour earned of just beacause he was Hurin's son?

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Question: Was Turin's honour earned of just beacause he was Hurin's son?

I think that a part of his honour was earned because of the reputation of Hurin, especially considering that Hurin was the greatest of the Edain up to that point.

However, Turin made his own reputation in the service of Thingol and Doriath. He himself became a great fighter, and the "fairest of Men" (or something to that effect). He was proud but he also understood pity for others. The Dragon-Helm became the Mormegil (and so forth) who was the "most hated and feared of Morgoth's enemies on his time" [paraphrased].

[Sween]

I think a lot of people may be confused between 'pride' and the genral attatude of the people of Hador. Even before comming west thery were a warlike folk and to them the notion of hideing in wood and protecting be stelth was a silly idea they desired to look there enemys in the eyes and do brave strokes. We see this much later in there distant ancestors the people of Rohan.

Now this desire can show itself in two ways in the way it is fist shown is the last stand of the people of Dol-lomin which is the most renowned deed of the fathers of men. Brave but it doomed them to there death shows that they didnt fear death and liked glory. The same can be seen with Turin in his actions in Nargothrond.

As for the differences bettween the two characters i dont think there is much difference both arguebly the best worriors of the Eldar days (Hurin is named the best i think its a close call between Beren and Turin for second) the only difference is Hurin was the leader of a proud people and to a certain extent fullfilled all potential, Turin was the leader of a great nation it just didnt exist anymore he was as much a natral leader as his father i think and certinally if anything seems a lot more comanding in words than him whilst Hurin follwed the councils of the king of the Noldor Turin took his own councils and followed them unto the end this maybe is where the curse of Morgoth comes into play.

If Turin wasnt cursed i think he might of grown to be greater than his father his mother i think is of higher kin than Hurins mother was the house of Boer was ever the favorite of the Noldor.

They both had there enemys with Hurin it was Morgoth (whom it must be said he never was broken by him except by the lies he saw through his eyes) with Turin it was the Dragon whom in the end he did concur though as with morgoth his end was achived by perverting the truth in there minds.

To sum up i think Turin is very much his fathers son but his cercumstances and the the curse that followed him made his life one of failure yet it ended in triumpth and yet fell into despair......poor sod

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Discussion point: Thanks to a few comments made by myself and Amarie(Elemmire) in the Free Will and Turin Turumbar thread, I was wandering what peoples views were on Turin's ever changing names.

[Elemmírë]

Ooo... very nice, TD. Let's see... I'll start by listing them all again right here...

Turin
Neithan "The Wronged"
Gorthol "Dread Helm"
Agarwaen son of Umarth "Blood-Stained son of Ill-fate"
Mormegil "The Black Sword"
Wildman of the Woods
Turambar "Master of Doom"

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Do you think Hurins absence during Turin's childhood had anything to do with his ill mood. Son of Ill-fate. This could represent Turin's thought on his father.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Do you think Hurins absence during Turin's childhood had anything to do with his ill mood. Son of Ill-fate. This could represent Turin's thought on his father.

It definitely made Turin more morose when he loses his father, although i think the final trigger is his seperation from his mother.

Calling himself the son of ill-fate was a way of recognising that his father's lot was also unhappy. He may have earlier heard the rumours that Morgoth had captured Hurin and bound him in his great fortress - very much an ill-fate.

[BelegBowman]

The only "curse" Melko had any part in, that concerned Turin, was taking his father away before he was able to teach his son anything about the world. Turin's choices were always prideful and rash resulting in him scewing himself over, not to mention anyone who listened to him. He was a warmonger and gloryhound instead of a general and leader of men. He never listened to anyone who dealt in logic or fairness and tried to pave his own way into history at the expense of those around him. For 90% of the story Melko never knew where Turin even was. Turin made all his own bad decisions.

[PorterW]

I always thought Turin was a bit bi-polar.

He never takes anyone else but himself into his decisions. He always does things for either his own good, or his pride. Thingol sent forgiveness, but poor Turin thinks the whole world is against him. I have always seen Turin as a selfish jerk and used his abilities not as well as he could have. Which obviously makes for great drama and emotion.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Question: Was Turin's honour earned of just beacause he was Hurin's son?

Too much of the both Turin's and Morwen's pride was based on their former positions as royalty, rather than upon their charactors and deeds. These feelings of privilege, entitlement, dispossesion let them to many of their worst choices. Hurin's pride was solidly founded in his own strenghs and charactor, making it a better force in his life. Whereas Turin could easily be goaded into impulsive and evil acts, and Morwen would endanger her family and contribute to poisoning of Turin's character by her vanities, Hurin could not even be broken to evil by the direct in person applied will of Morgoth, who could control millions by his will, break the wills of mighty Eldar, bring out multiple evils even unto murder in the greatest of the Noldor. Hurin could only be decieved and subtly manipulated by decades of filtered information, propaganda, bainwashing, and sorcerous pressures, Turin could be reprogramed by a few minutes of effort by Glaurung.