LotR Discussion Project: Book III, Chapter IV

Bombadillo · 03-04-2005, 12:54 AM

Treebeard

New Characters:
Treebeard / Fangorn
Quickbeam / Bregalad
Entwives (spoken of)
huorns (spoken of, not by name)

Summary
At the beginning of this chapter Merry and Pippin are running into Fangorn Forest, away from a battle between the Uruk-hai and Rohirrim. They stop once for some sips of the Entwash and then make for a hill where the rising sun is shining. One to three days ago Merry was deeply cut across his forehead, and both hobbits had cruel injuries from the orcs, but all that seems to have suddenly healed and they are re-energized.

For the descriptions of this forest Tolkien uses a lot of personification. He makes the trees seem like soldiers that “stood silently about them, rank upon rank,” or “marched down the slopes.”

The more detailed descriptions are told in dialogue as the hobbits’ own perceptions. Pippin describes it as “shabby,” and relates it to a room back in Tuckborough where the Old Took would spend most of his indoor hours, which has been untouched since his death. Merry calls it “frightfully tree-ish” although favorable to Mirkwook because there are apparently no creatures at all in the forest.

When the reach the top of the hill, they discuss the forest, and agree that it’s almost likeable. And suddenly, Treebeard! They had been leaning against his legs during their conversation without knowing it, and he reveals himself after hearing their nice words about his lands. Something Tolkien doesn’t stress but I find notable is that the hobbits show no signs of surprise. One moment they’re in the deadest part of the world they’ve ever seen, and then a huge, “woodwind” voice erupts out of nowhere, they’re being held up in the air by a tree, the tree introduces itself as the oldest sentient being ever and guardian of the trees. To be so at ease was hasty of them indeed, or so I think at least. In his defense, Pippin was deeply intrigued by Treebeard’s eyes, and Tolkien tells us that he was never satisfied with any description he gave of them (and in doing so, Tolkien admits that he in the English language just can’t express how cool this is). But still, they didn’t flinch, and didn’t even hesitate when he asked them their names.

That dialogue clarifies a few things. First, Merry and Pippin aren’t orcs. That’s good for them, because Treebeard thought they were at first and he was planning on crushing them. Second, Treebeard is an Ent, a humongous creature that’s pretty much a mutated tree, who was in the world before the Elves, were taught speech by the Elves, love and protect trees, have their own unspeakably drawn-out language peppered with hums and rumbles, and are not easily excited. Thus the first thing we know about Treebeard’s character is that he loves trees and hates orcs, but also hates being hasty. This slowness to anger is important later, when he debates with other Ents whether or not to attack Saruman in Isengard.

He also mentions Entwives. From his description, they’d look the same as Ents to layman’s eyes. He tells the story of how they were lost long ago. When Sauron was first in power (and before Isildur met him) he burned their gardens and they ran away scattered. Since that happened while the Ents were out wandering, they were lost, and they haven’t yet been found. Treebeard says they can’t reproduce without them, and many old Ents are becoming essentially useless huorns (tree-ish Ents or Entish trees). Their race is dwindling as a result. (not enough active mooters

)

Some ent-strides later, they’re all inside one of Treebeard’s ent-houses. Merry and Pippin tell them the action-packed side of their story, but leave out the Ring because to talk of that would be hasty. But before they start talking, he holds his hands over two bowls, and they glow with green and golden light. That also makes the trees that line his walls glow. He also serves the hobbits some drink that looks and for the most part tastes like water, but it has some essence to it they can’t describe. The next morning they have some more drink, and then it has a different essence.

During the telling of their tale, he is immensely interested in Saruman, and thinks out loud that perhaps he was turning to evil even before he was elected to the White Council. Now he reveals how long Saruman’s history of cruelty is, and Treebeard actually becomes infuriated about his increasing reckless abuse of trees. With much Entish modesty, he says he’s been “roused.” The next day he organizes an entmoot in hopes of rousing other ents, because he believes they must seek vengeance on Saruman, and now is the right time with war and devastation on its way to the forests anyway, what with Sauron coming back to power again. The moot takes three days to decide, a record for speediness. An ent named Quickbeam, “the nearest thing… to a hasty ent,” is the first to decide that an attack is necessary, and so he takes the hobbits with him for a while so they don’t get bored. Once the rest have decided, ra-hoom-rah! A week after fleeing from the Uruk-hai into Fangorn Forest, Merry and Pippin are leaving it, to see those abominations and their dwelling place torn apart!

Some Topics for Discussion
1. Was there some 'magic' power within the forest? How would you explain the hobbits healing so fast and (as it’s revealed later) growing so much?
2. What exactly did Treebeard do when he made things glow inside his house? Was he the source of that weird power within the forest (if there is any)?
3. Do you think that Merry and Pippin have started to mature? What makes you think that specifically?
4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? Treebeard seemed to think they would like the Shire, and he heard reports that they had run off in all directions.
5. Treebeard did not go into great detail about the huorns, but how do you think they happen?
6. Was this post long enough?

I could have shortened it but I couldn't decide what to cut out. Sorry but of course I'd pick the chapter I have the most to say about.

**Nurvingiel** · 03-04-2005, 11:18 AM

Great summary Bombadillo! This is one of my favourite chapters, and you really did it justice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

1. Was there some 'magic' power within the forest? How would you explain the hobbits healing so fast and (as it’s revealed later) growing so much?

I think there is a bit of magic, the subtle kind of Middle-earth obviously. Mainly, I think the Hobbits healed quickly because they are young and naturally tough. Plus, away from the orcs their spirits picked up almost instantly, which really helps someone recover.
Clearly there is some sort of magic in an Entdraught, at the very least to the point where it would affect a non-Ent. (It may not be magical to the Ents.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

3. Do you think that Merry and Pippin have started to mature? What makes you think that specifically?

I really think they have, and it's personified by their physical growth in this chapter. A great example is simply how they roused the Ents with their good sense and practicallity, as well as a sense of right and wrong. They also had begun to understand the overarching implications of the War at this point. Pippin certainly, is more mature than when he wished he had looked at more maps at Rivendell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? Treebeard seemed to think they would like the Shire, and he heard reports that they had run off in all directions.

I think they had a different attitude about nature and went to what is now the Brown Lands to pursue it. I think Sauron somehow destroyed them, just to be evil. Perhaps he attacked them with orcs and wiped them all out.
When would that have happened, and why is it not in the Sil? (Perhaps I'm just plain wrong.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

5. Treebeard did not go into great detail about the huorns, but how do you think they happen?

In the same way the Ents happened - created by Yavanna.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

6. Was this post long enough? I could have shortened it but I couldn't decide what to cut out. Sorry but of course I'd pick the chapter I have the most to say about.

I think it was just perfect.

Durin1 · 03-04-2005, 12:09 PM

Good intro Bombadillo!

To (or at least to attempt to) answer your questions in turn:

1. I don't know about magic being evidenced in Fangorn, although quite clearly, the drink that the hobbits take is "special". Maybe with their earthly ingredients, as has been said, it may have been just that only non-ents were susceptible its effects.
I know i'm moving a bit forward here, but Legolas and Gimli remark about the change in Merry and Pippin when they arrive at the ruin of Isengard after the battle of Helms Deep. Indeed, Legolas is quick to note the reason after he is told that the hobbits had drank from the ents "strange tales have been told regarding the drink of the Onodrim". (paraphrased - not got the book on me).

2. There certainly seems to be a "power" of sorts in Fangorn, and Treebeard "looks after" it. However, I think he may have learnt somewhat from the elves in past ages and making a drink with peculiar qualities could have been at least developed from the teachings of the elves. We know of Murivor (and the orcish drink that is given to Merry and Pippin during their capture) so it is not altogether a unique "art", in my opinion.

3. I don't think Merry was that immature to begin with, although Pippin does come across as being a bit too care-free at times. I'm more of the opinion that their personalities and characters have been hardened by their journey. One example is that they do not lose hope when they enter Fangorn. Another has been pointed out: they want to do somethng about Saruman.

4. The entwives lost. Tolkien himself feared that the entwives were no more (in one of his letters regarding this point). Their actual dwellings were what is now the Brown Lands. These are so called because during the Last Aliance, Sauron burnt and massacred all that lived in that region, plants gardens etc.

5. leave that one until next time!

6. Yes, it was long enough!

ps

Nurvingiel, I'm sure you meant Yavanna when asked about how "Ents happened".

The Wizard from Milan · 03-04-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

1. Was there some 'magic' power within the forest? How would you explain the hobbits healing so fast and (as it’s revealed later) growing so much?

I think Merry's cut (and other injuries he might have had) were healed by the orcs' liquor. I am not sure it is mentioned that Pippin suffered any injury.
Their growth is surely due to the entdraught. The entdraught is "magical" but I think we need to apply here a disclaimer about the various forms of magic being different in Arda (IIRC, the elves say that humans call "magic" both "elven magic" and "sauron magic", but the elves seem to think that the two are actually not comparable)

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-05-2005, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Treebeard

excellent post bombadillo!

Quote:

1. Was there some 'magic' power within the forest? How would you explain the hobbits healing so fast and (as it’s revealed later) growing so much?

i think the 'magic' comes from arda itself, the earth exuding a sort of mysteriousness of it's own

Quote:

2. What exactly did Treebeard do when he made things glow inside his house? Was he the source of that weird power within the forest (if there is any)?

i think he was just harnessing some of the natural power of the forest

Quote:

3. Do you think that Merry and Pippin have started to mature? What makes you think that specifically?

yes, because they begin to act in a much more mature way, they seem to have become more aware, of themselves and of the great deeds abounding

Quote:

4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? Treebeard seemed to think they would like the Shire, and he heard reports that they had run off in all directions.

i think many were killed when sauron unleashed blitzes upon the brown lands, and those that weren't fled to the 'four winds'

Quote:

5. Treebeard did not go into great detail about the huorns, but how do you think they happen?

i am not sure, i think it is just another of those 'enigmas' like bombadil and goldberry

Quote:

6. Was this post long enough?

I could have shortened it but I couldn't decide what to cut out. Sorry but of course I'd pick the chapter I have the most to say about.

i think it was an excellent post, not too long at all

Lefty Scaevola · 03-05-2005, 11:18 PM

"4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? "

Likely they were killed, when Sauron destroyed their gardens during the war of the Last Alliance. (Scorched earth tactic, the gardens, where the "Brown Lands" were afterwards, would have been a source of supply the the army of the Last Allinace, marching down the Anduin Valley.

Olmer · 03-10-2005, 02:49 AM

[IMG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

"4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? "

But of course some of the Green Ladies are still remaining in the forests of Harlindon and Forlindon at the foot of the Blue Mountains. Remember Sam's cousin Hal, who was hunting in Northfarthing and saw a walking tree?

BTW. The drawing is mine.

Butterbeer · 03-10-2005, 07:17 PM

definately something in the water of an earthy treeish healthy growth persusasion: there is a deep ancient rooted magic in Fangorn distilled through the roots from the eldar years perhaps, treebeard is master of this and can control to some degree how light on the liquid reacts - huorns are part of circular life and death of ever changing generations (in this case trees and ents) some are getting sleepy some are waking up, the "true" ents are the tree herders, managing, teaching, herding etc,

these are just off the top of my head and should be viewed as such!

liked the post - not too long

ringbearer · 06-17-2022, 09:29 PM

[QUOTE=Lefty Scaevola;458952]"4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? "

I always felt sorry for the Ents and think Tolkien should have written an epilogue where they all come home when Middle Earth was purged of Sauron's evil. One particular one comes to Treebeard's home. I will name her Treebush

and she says "Well, I'm back."

03-04-2005, 12:54 AM	#1
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	LotR Discussion Project: Book III, Chapter IV Treebeard New Characters: Treebeard / Fangorn Quickbeam / Bregalad Entwives (spoken of) huorns (spoken of, not by name) Summary At the beginning of this chapter Merry and Pippin are running into Fangorn Forest, away from a battle between the Uruk-hai and Rohirrim. They stop once for some sips of the Entwash and then make for a hill where the rising sun is shining. One to three days ago Merry was deeply cut across his forehead, and both hobbits had cruel injuries from the orcs, but all that seems to have suddenly healed and they are re-energized. For the descriptions of this forest Tolkien uses a lot of personification. He makes the trees seem like soldiers that “stood silently about them, rank upon rank,” or “marched down the slopes.” The more detailed descriptions are told in dialogue as the hobbits’ own perceptions. Pippin describes it as “shabby,” and relates it to a room back in Tuckborough where the Old Took would spend most of his indoor hours, which has been untouched since his death. Merry calls it “frightfully tree-ish” although favorable to Mirkwook because there are apparently no creatures at all in the forest. When the reach the top of the hill, they discuss the forest, and agree that it’s almost likeable. And suddenly, Treebeard! They had been leaning against his legs during their conversation without knowing it, and he reveals himself after hearing their nice words about his lands. Something Tolkien doesn’t stress but I find notable is that the hobbits show no signs of surprise. One moment they’re in the deadest part of the world they’ve ever seen, and then a huge, “woodwind” voice erupts out of nowhere, they’re being held up in the air by a tree, the tree introduces itself as the oldest sentient being ever and guardian of the trees. To be so at ease was hasty of them indeed, or so I think at least. In his defense, Pippin was deeply intrigued by Treebeard’s eyes, and Tolkien tells us that he was never satisfied with any description he gave of them (and in doing so, Tolkien admits that he in the English language just can’t express how cool this is). But still, they didn’t flinch, and didn’t even hesitate when he asked them their names. That dialogue clarifies a few things. First, Merry and Pippin aren’t orcs. That’s good for them, because Treebeard thought they were at first and he was planning on crushing them. Second, Treebeard is an Ent, a humongous creature that’s pretty much a mutated tree, who was in the world before the Elves, were taught speech by the Elves, love and protect trees, have their own unspeakably drawn-out language peppered with hums and rumbles, and are not easily excited. Thus the first thing we know about Treebeard’s character is that he loves trees and hates orcs, but also hates being hasty. This slowness to anger is important later, when he debates with other Ents whether or not to attack Saruman in Isengard. He also mentions Entwives. From his description, they’d look the same as Ents to layman’s eyes. He tells the story of how they were lost long ago. When Sauron was first in power (and before Isildur met him) he burned their gardens and they ran away scattered. Since that happened while the Ents were out wandering, they were lost, and they haven’t yet been found. Treebeard says they can’t reproduce without them, and many old Ents are becoming essentially useless huorns (tree-ish Ents or Entish trees). Their race is dwindling as a result. (not enough active mooters ) Some ent-strides later, they’re all inside one of Treebeard’s ent-houses. Merry and Pippin tell them the action-packed side of their story, but leave out the Ring because to talk of that would be hasty. But before they start talking, he holds his hands over two bowls, and they glow with green and golden light. That also makes the trees that line his walls glow. He also serves the hobbits some drink that looks and for the most part tastes like water, but it has some essence to it they can’t describe. The next morning they have some more drink, and then it has a different essence. During the telling of their tale, he is immensely interested in Saruman, and thinks out loud that perhaps he was turning to evil even before he was elected to the White Council. Now he reveals how long Saruman’s history of cruelty is, and Treebeard actually becomes infuriated about his increasing reckless abuse of trees. With much Entish modesty, he says he’s been “roused.” The next day he organizes an entmoot in hopes of rousing other ents, because he believes they must seek vengeance on Saruman, and now is the right time with war and devastation on its way to the forests anyway, what with Sauron coming back to power again. The moot takes three days to decide, a record for speediness. An ent named Quickbeam, “the nearest thing… to a hasty ent,” is the first to decide that an attack is necessary, and so he takes the hobbits with him for a while so they don’t get bored. Once the rest have decided, ra-hoom-rah! A week after fleeing from the Uruk-hai into Fangorn Forest, Merry and Pippin are leaving it, to see those abominations and their dwelling place torn apart! Some Topics for Discussion 1. Was there some 'magic' power within the forest? How would you explain the hobbits healing so fast and (as it’s revealed later) growing so much? 2. What exactly did Treebeard do when he made things glow inside his house? Was he the source of that weird power within the forest (if there is any)? 3. Do you think that Merry and Pippin have started to mature? What makes you think that specifically? 4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? Treebeard seemed to think they would like the Shire, and he heard reports that they had run off in all directions. 5. Treebeard did not go into great detail about the huorns, but how do you think they happen? 6. Was this post long enough? I could have shortened it but I couldn't decide what to cut out. Sorry but of course I'd pick the chapter I have the most to say about. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 03-06-2005 at 10:37 AM.

03-04-2005, 12:09 PM	#3
Durin1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 221	Good intro Bombadillo! To (or at least to attempt to) answer your questions in turn: 1. I don't know about magic being evidenced in Fangorn, although quite clearly, the drink that the hobbits take is "special". Maybe with their earthly ingredients, as has been said, it may have been just that only non-ents were susceptible its effects. I know i'm moving a bit forward here, but Legolas and Gimli remark about the change in Merry and Pippin when they arrive at the ruin of Isengard after the battle of Helms Deep. Indeed, Legolas is quick to note the reason after he is told that the hobbits had drank from the ents "strange tales have been told regarding the drink of the Onodrim". (paraphrased - not got the book on me). 2. There certainly seems to be a "power" of sorts in Fangorn, and Treebeard "looks after" it. However, I think he may have learnt somewhat from the elves in past ages and making a drink with peculiar qualities could have been at least developed from the teachings of the elves. We know of Murivor (and the orcish drink that is given to Merry and Pippin during their capture) so it is not altogether a unique "art", in my opinion. 3. I don't think Merry was that immature to begin with, although Pippin does come across as being a bit too care-free at times. I'm more of the opinion that their personalities and characters have been hardened by their journey. One example is that they do not lose hope when they enter Fangorn. Another has been pointed out: they want to do somethng about Saruman. 4. The entwives lost. Tolkien himself feared that the entwives were no more (in one of his letters regarding this point). Their actual dwellings were what is now the Brown Lands. These are so called because during the Last Aliance, Sauron burnt and massacred all that lived in that region, plants gardens etc. 5. leave that one until next time! 6. Yes, it was long enough! ps Nurvingiel, I'm sure you meant Yavanna when asked about how "Ents happened". __________________ Durin the Sleepless!

03-05-2005, 11:18 PM	#6
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	"4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? " Likely they were killed, when Sauron destroyed their gardens during the war of the Last Alliance. (Scorched earth tactic, the gardens, where the "Brown Lands" were afterwards, would have been a source of supply the the army of the Last Allinace, marching down the Anduin Valley. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

03-10-2005, 07:17 PM	#8
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	Healing powers definately something in the water of an earthy treeish healthy growth persusasion: there is a deep ancient rooted magic in Fangorn distilled through the roots from the eldar years perhaps, treebeard is master of this and can control to some degree how light on the liquid reacts - huorns are part of circular life and death of ever changing generations (in this case trees and ents) some are getting sleepy some are waking up, the "true" ents are the tree herders, managing, teaching, herding etc, these are just off the top of my head and should be viewed as such! liked the post - not too long

06-17-2022, 09:29 PM	#9
ringbearer Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St. Louis, Mo. USA Posts: 561	[QUOTE=Lefty Scaevola;458952]"4. Purely for speculation purposes, what do you think happened to the Entwives? " I always felt sorry for the Ents and think Tolkien should have written an epilogue where they all come home when Middle Earth was purged of Sauron's evil. One particular one comes to Treebeard's home. I will name her Treebush and she says "Well, I'm back." __________________ Ringbearer Hide Witch, hide! The Good Folks come to burn thee! Their keen enjoyment hid behind A Gothic mask of duty!

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