Let´s talk about Dune...

[Rían]

Also, of course the whole religion thing made me just crack up! The idea that the MP flies around and plants little "religious" suggestions that the stupid natives fall for - actually, I don't know whether to laugh at the stupidity (IMO) of it, or be indignant at the condescencion and arrogance of it. And again, it's a selfish goal thing - do they care what happens to the natives? No, as long as a BG person is protected, so what? There's no sense of individual value. Everyone is cannon fodder to everyone else's goal.

Of course, the whole "planting religion" idea is so silly because it presupposed the existence of the thing that's being introduced. As Lewis says, (rough quote) - "it's like saying they did this ritual because they were afraid of dead men, without explaining why dead men, assuredly the least dangerous type of men, should be frightening."

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Also, of course the whole religion thing made me just crack up! The idea that the MP flies around and plants little "religious" suggestions that the stupid natives fall for - actually, I don't know whether to laugh at the stupidity (IMO) of it, or be indignant at the condescencion and arrogance of it. And again, it's a selfish goal thing - do they care what happens to the natives? No, as long as a BG person is protected, so what? There's no sense of individual value. Everyone is cannon fodder to everyone else's goal.....

Well. if you look at the age of exploration and the missionaries of the Catholic church being used as a tool of conquest there is quite a parallel in human history. Remember the Fremen are a persecuted people and they all have a base beleif in the Orange Bible and the local belief systems. Many cultures merge external belief systems into a new unique one.

Herbert is not projecting a utopian view of the future as many sci-fi writers do. Neither is he predicting horror gloom and doom. He is showing that humans will be humans. Power attracts the corrupt. There are those that defy power for the goals of fairness or selfishness. The moments of high drama in human history contain all the elements Herbert includes in his stories, expanded to a much larger stage.

[Rían]

I don't want to get into an in-depth discussion of religion here - what I mean is that the concept that you can apparently just "seed" anything you want and the locals will swallow it just doesn't ring true to me from what I see in RL.

Any comments on my other post? (The one before the post you quoted).

by Cirdan
He is showing that humans will be humans.

Yes, there are users, but to me, the BALANCE between users and those that are more - I don't know, I suppose "humane" - that I see portrayed in Dune is not true to life, either globally or within individuals.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I don't want to get into an in-depth discussion of religion here - what I mean is that the concept that you can apparently just "seed" anything you want and the locals will swallow it just doesn't ring true to me from what I see in RL.

i could argue that big time... but i'll refrain

on Dune... one of the things i enjoy about it so much is it's realism... there is a tendency in fantasy, even tolkien, where good is all good and evil is all evil... not necessarily black and white, but even 'flawed' characters tend to have perfect flaws... which have a tendency to always resolve in a positive way by the end of the story

tolkien's portral of frodo does take it that step further, where the weight of the ring never really leaves him even in the end... but herbert makes it an interegal part of every character in his stories... even the 'good' ones don't always have the most nobel methods... they tend to be more influenced by the bonds of family and affiliations over some greater good... which i think is a lot more common in the real world than the few who are willing to sacrifice everything for some nobel cause

don't get me wrong, i enjoy the kind of idealized existance you get from a lot of fantasy for what it is... but the characters in Dune tend to be more 'real' in terms of what most people are truely like than other fantasy characters who are more 'what you wish people could be'

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i could argue that big time... but i'll refrain

But you CAN'T argue that it "doesn't ring true to ME from what I see in RL." (emphasis added) Now YOU might see it differently, but you can't say how I see it

And that's a big complaint I have with many (not all) liberals, BTW. They always are fighting for the masses, but they have a terribly low opinion of those very same masses ... ("poor things are too stupid to know any better, but we'll tell 'em what's right! We know what they really want!")

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And that's a big complaint I have with many (not all) liberals, BTW. They always are fighting for the masses, but they have a terribly low opinion of those very same masses ... ("poor things are too stupid to know any better, but we'll tell 'em what's right! We know what they really want!")

What has this got to do with Dune?

Is there not enough stupid us and them political discussions elsewhere on this board.

Conservatives have a worse opinion ("stupid things, they'll take what we give 'em (more tax cuts for me and ship their jobs overseas) and like it or we'll accusse them of not being patriotic.

Aren't mocking stereotypes fun?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Cirdan
What has this got to do with Dune? ...

Sorry I didn't make that clear - to me, it has a LOT to do with Dune. It wasn't just a random mean comment about liberals (and how often have you seen me do that, BTW?).

I see that attitude in Dune with the "seeding" of religion by those who are implied to be intelligent and in charge, and the (v. strongly implied) non-intelligent masses (Fremen) swallowing it whole. And I think it is insulting, and not realistic, either - the masses are smarter than many people think, IMO.

I won't respond to the comment about conservatives, because you were responding to what you thought was a random attack, and NOT a comment on Dune, on my part. I see why you thought that, because I didn't word the post well. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to the "seeding" thing in Dune, but I can see now that it wasn't v. obvious.

[BeardofPants]

Interesting points Rian. I can see why you think that the book has no "heart". However, this is due in main part to several reasons. The first is already mentioned by Cirdan. The characters are not black and white. With perhaps the exception Baron Harkonnen, all the characters have both good and bad traits. They're not easily categorised. The second consideration is that the society is highly delineated in terms of a class system, and the book tends to focus on these relationships rather than emotional ones. The books purpose is to convey the notion of Power - who has it, who wants it, and so forth. The book is about political maneuvering (omg, I spelled it right!), one-up-manships. It is about the spice melange. It is about conspiracy. And most of all, it is about rivalry between two houses, that started way back in the eons of the butlerian jihad. There is a lot of history preceding this book, and perhaps if it covered more of the butlerian jihad, you'd understand why the book has no heart. This war took place thousands of years ago, and before that, humans were enslaved by a kind of cyborg (a super-human of sorts, and robot henchmen) for thousands of years. The concept of "humanity" was punishable by death. Humans were forced to built great Robot cities, and to squelch their humanity to survive. Only those who were suitably subdued escaped the notice of their tyrannical masters. The leader of the Superhuman cyborgs (and robot henchmen) was an Atreides. And one of the main revolutionaries who lead the war against the robots was a Harkonnen. So, thousands of years before Dune, you have the essence of "humanity" being wiped out by Robots. After the conclusion of the Butlerian Jihad, you have a deliberate movement to rid society of computers and robots, and other forms of technology. Spice Melange becomes the sole means of technological development. So, essentially, in the time of Dune, the people are those who survived from the great war, those whose ancestors from thousands of years ago were cowed by robots, and computers. You have melange addicts. Their survival is based upon ensuring a constant maintenance of melange - no melange means certain death. Dune is a time of addiction, hatred, political rivalry, and most of all, it is about Power, and Corruption. It has no heart, because it was beaten out of them thousands of years ago by merciless robots, cyborgs, and a supercomputer. It has no heart because of spice addiction. It has no heart because of deep-seated hatred between House Atreides, and House Harkonnen. In a lot of ways, humans have become the Robots.

[Rían]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
[detailed and helpful explanation]

Thanks- that explains a few things. I was wondering about the human/person (or however they worded it - I forgot!) allusions, and that explains it.

Also perhaps I didn't like it as much as some because I don't like politics ... and that's certainly a big part of the book.

But as I said, it was quite interesting, and kept me up late one night at a page-turning point. Yet I don't think I'll read the others - or at least they're not tops on my to-read list.

I'm glad you didn't take offense - it's hard for me to not like a book that a friend likes, but yet I think it's untrue to the friendship to hide that. (but it's scary to the part of me that really, really dislikes not agreeing with people!)

Interesting points Rian. I can see why you think that the book has no "heart". However, this is due in main part to several reasons. The first is already mentioned by Cirdan. The characters are not black and white. With perhaps the exception Baron Harkonnen, all the characters have both good and bad traits.

Yet I think that Tolkien's characters are not black and white, either ... IMO, they're more true-to-life. But given the circumstances you detailed in Dune, I can see how the characters would have less heart - as you said, "it was beaten out of them". Yet I also think that that's impossible on such a large scale ... so as I said, my objections were that it was not true to reality. But I can accept it as an alternate reality, and a good story about an alternate reality.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
But you CAN'T argue that it "doesn't ring true to ME from what I see in RL." (emphasis added) Now YOU might see it differently, but you can't say how I see it

And that's a big complaint I have with many (not all) liberals, BTW. They always are fighting for the masses, but they have a terribly low opinion of those very same masses ... ("poor things are too stupid to know any better, but we'll tell 'em what's right! We know what they really want!") [/B]

i agree that your statements are what you believe to be true... as i've said before... perception is reality

it's the big picture thing... there are intellectuals in the world, there are those that are quite intelligent but don't care to think in philosophical ways all that often, and there are also many that are just not as 'smart' as others and are easily influenced by the call of religion and/or nationalism... this is not a judgement on religion or the people of the world... it is simply a historical fact

i think dune approaches some of these issues in a way that scifi/fantasy rarely did at the time it was published... especially religion, which was largely untouched pre-dune

[Rían]

You forgot an important category, Mr. Jenkins - those who are extremely intelligent and "religious", such as our beloved Mr. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Chesterton, my dad, etc.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

You forgot an important category, Mr. Jenkins - those who are extremely intelligent and "religious", such as our beloved Mr. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Chesterton, my dad, etc.

I find that a bit oxymoronic from my personal experience.

Back to Dune... A new movie is out! Now I read the first three books and liked them, the Lynch movie was 'ok' if somewhat confusing and prone to some bad acting, the Sci Fi series was a notch up, so yeah, curious about this new adaptation. Haven't seen it yet myself, but plan to.