Abortion and Handguns - Page 2

Elven Archer · 11-12-2002, 11:00 PM

Quote:

I admit that obviosuly intruders do break into houses, but usually not to murder random people, and if you are worried about this, it is my opinion that you are living with a very irrational fear

if an armed robber comes into rob your house and you get in his way there's a good chance he's gonna shoot ya, why not be protected? If an armed robber came into my house i wouldn't want to kill him but i'd make sure he couldn't shoot me.

Quote:

I do however believe that a woman should have complete control of her body, and that her life is way more important than the "life" of someone who hasn't been born yet.

it's not just her body, there's a body inside her too. so you should just kill an unborn baby because of a stupid mistake you made(with the exception of rape)?

Draken · 11-13-2002, 06:35 AM

Abortion? Ah, too complicated, I'll come back to it another time! Certainly too complicated for some of the black-and-white opinions that have been posted...

Gun ownership? Not as clear-cut as it seems. While I think it would be insane for a country with no culture of gun ownership to suddenly permit it, going the other way is a different matter. The huge amount of guns circulating in the USA, for instance, will not disappear overnight. More pragmatically, the NRA is a very, very powerful lobby indeed, I wonder how many presidential candidates would want to tangle with it.

Perhaps the question should be how to stop people who own guns using them to kill people.

According to the ICVS, gun ownership in England and Wales is below 5% (in terms of households). Homicide rates per 100,000 people for England and Wales of 97-99 averaged 1.45.

USA gun ownership was estimated at 48.5% and the corresponding homicide rate was 6.26. Which seems to say something about gun ownership.

But...gun ownership in Canada was estimated at 22% and their homicide rate of 1.85 wasn't that much higher than the England & Wales figure. Swiss gun ownership is about 36%, yet their homicide rate of 1.18 is LESS than many non gun-owning countries.

OK there's all sorts of complications like number of guns per household, handguns v long guns etc, but maybe getting caught up in arguments about quantiies of hardware is the wrong approach.

emplynx · 11-13-2002, 08:41 AM

So for all you pro-choicers. When does a child go from being a "fetus" to being a "human" and what right do you have to say that?

Elenka · 11-13-2002, 12:45 PM

I feel like if a woman wants an abortion, she should be able to get one, but let it be a lesson to her. As far as guns are concerned, don't show your kids and don't take it out unless its an absolute emergency and you know how to use it.

Lizra · 11-13-2002, 01:29 PM

As soon as the egg is fertilized, a living human being begins to grow. If I had aborted either one of my children (at any stage) they would not be here today. Therefor, I feel That abortion is murder. ( I always felt the anti-abortion slogan "It stops a beating heart, to ring true, I can't help it, I'm usually fairly liberal, but hey, it's true!) If you could murder your growing child, that's your call at this time. I could never do this. Free birth control should be easily avaible to all, but abstinence works great too!

If a woman really wants an abortion, I supose she should be able to get a safe one, but I think people should be more open about what's going on to the new life and the mother. Abortion is very painful, not good for your body, and will probably linger in your mind for the rest of your life. Wouldn't it be easier to use birth controll, and have your sex life "together".
Handguns, People have had guns, rifles etc, in the USA since the beginning. We live in the country and need our rifle for shooting coyotes that try to kill our pets. Also vicious stray dogs come around, racoons that are diseased need to be shot and put out of their misery. My father was in WW2, Vietnam, and Korea. He had an assortment of guns, after spending a lifetime in the military it was a hobby he enjoyed. My husband likes to hunt, and enjoys target practice. I just don't see guns being made illegal in the USA. As someone said, there are way too many for starters, so they just need to make it as difficult as possible for "NUTS" to get a hold of them. It will be impossible to elimate sick people misusing handguns unfortunately. It's not a perfect world.

Renille · 11-13-2002, 04:19 PM

In my ideal world, all handguns are locked up tight when not in use,labeled, and registered. Unfortunately, this isn't my ideal world. But still, I believe guns should be locked against kids. The scene in the "Sixth Sense" involving a ghost of a kid and a gun still scares me slightly.
As for abortion,I'm against it totally. But more later...15 minutes is up.

Nibs · 11-13-2002, 05:14 PM

I'm anti-abortion but pro-choice in the case of incest and rape. When I talk about abortion, I envision a fetus that has the potential of being born and living life as all of us do. Abortion keeps that from happening. Until more research is done to find out when the child is truly alive, it will be alive when the law says so. I'm not one to say that abortion is murder in the strict sense of the word, but I would have a difficult time living with that decision, were I in the position to have done so.

As for firearms, I think more action towards teaching people about safe use would benefit more than stiffer regulations. Perhaps an elementary school-aimed program to teach children about safety and precaustion when using such things. Could avert many an unfortunate death.

Seems kinda funny... I recall having behavior-health classes similar in nature, except to avert the first travesty.

sun-star · 11-13-2002, 05:20 PM

I think abortion is wrong, but sometimes, unfortunately, necessary. I feel uncomfortable making a judgement on this topic, however, because I can't be at all sure I would stick to the views I can so glibly explain here if I were really in that situation. I hope so, but I don't know. So no further comment.

On handguns, I don't quite understand how it can be right (or a right) to possess a gun for self-defence, but not for attacking someone else. It's not always a simple distinction. At least if guns are against the law and someone has one (or has one without a licence), you know they don't own it for peaceful purposes because they've broken the law to get it. Whether it's feasible to ban handguns entirely or not is another matter.

Dunadan · 11-13-2002, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nibs
I'm anti-abortion but pro-choice in the case of incest and rape.

Quite a lot of people seem to have this view.

I wondered why it is different if there's been incest or rape involved. Presumably you're anti-abortion because the foetus has human rights, which take precedence over the mother's rights to decide what to do with her body.

Now, I would assume that either the foetus has these rights, or it hasn't. There's no sense in which it ever stops having these rights just because circumstances are different.

So it seems to me that you're saying the mother's rights not to have to bear a child after being raped takes precedence over the foetus's right not to be killed. If so, why?

cheers

d.

elvendrummer87 · 11-13-2002, 05:29 PM

I am TOTALLY against abortion! I know people have said it before, but that fetus isn't just a fetus , it's a life ! I try (though not always succesful) to live by the rule "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." You wouldn't be around today if your mother had decided that she didn't want you then. If you don't want the responsibility of a kid, then you shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

Comic Book Guy · 11-13-2002, 07:22 PM

Legalised firearms in N.I? I enjoy being able to walk outside thank you very much.

Aeryn · 11-13-2002, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elenka
I feel like if a woman wants an abortion, she should be able to get one, but let it be a lesson to her.

Erawyn, I feel that that wasnt a thought out comment, or at least a comment not made out of experience. Do you know anyone who has had an abortion? I know two girls, one being my cousin, and the other a school friend. Not only this but they have had them SEVERAL times. they can't keep their legs together.During the first pregnancy if they had decided to keep it, or at least give it up, I doubt there would have been a second abortion. Studies show that someone who has an abortion, is more likely to have another abortion than not to. What does that say to you? Teens are sex fiends? No, it says young girls/and women don't "learn a lesson"!

It is in a persons nature to choose the easy way out.

*enough with the rant*

BeardofPants · 11-13-2002, 08:55 PM

Aeryn? Have you actually been through an abortion? I would hardly say that it is an easy decision for ANY woman to make. I had to stand by a friend's decision to have a termination, and she just about had a mental breakdown! And the next time she fell pregnant, she decided to keep it. Please don't generalise like that. Not every woman is a serial abortionist.

Aeryn · 11-13-2002, 08:59 PM

Serial abortionist? I like that, I'll use that in my next rant. Well BoP studies are generalization. And for the sake of expressing my point I used one. *shrug*

Dunadan · 11-14-2002, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
Studies show that someone who has an abortion, is more likely to have another abortion than not to.

All that shows is that if you think that abortion is acceptable, you are more likely to have an abortion than if you don't. Hardly earth-shattering news there.

Lizra · 11-14-2002, 07:42 AM

I've know women who have used abortion as birth control, I've also known women who have agonized, and cried over the decision, the pain, and the ramifications the abortion had on their reproductive systems. Both "birth control" women were the types that would rather die than have someone tell them what to do, (no matter if it was good advice or bad, just rebellion ruled their life) and both also were in very loose, wild phases of their lives concerning sex, and drugs and drink. I guess you either care or you don't, I don't know???? My point is that birth control is so much easier. I've used the pill, (simple), an IUD, (rather painful), the shot, (Depra-provera, easiest by far)and the sponge,(they took it off the market). All worked, all kept me out of the abortion dilemma!! whewwww! I would have an unwanted child and give it up for adoption. I would never want "that" ( killing, stopping whatever you call ending a life) on my conscience. I would NEVER have peace of mind again. Remember, (IMO) premarital sex is pretty much overrated, and not worth all the grief an unwanted pregnancy might cause. Sorry if I sound preachy, just the voice of experience hoping to shed some light!

Nibs · 11-14-2002, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dunadan
So it seems to me that you're saying the mother's rights not to have to bear a child after being raped takes precedence over the foetus's right not to be killed. If so, why?

Good question.

The mother in question never made the decision to have intercourse with the father. I think she shouldn't be forced to live with the decision that man made that caused her to be burdened with the child. The choice should be up to her.

Silverstripe · 11-14-2002, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nibs
Good question.

The mother in question never made the decision to have intercourse with the father. I think she shouldn't be forced to live with the decision that man made that caused her to be burdened with the child. The choice should be up to her.

That can only be true if you consider the fetus to be a non-person. If you consider this to be an unborn child, as I do, then clearly one person's right to life is more important than another's right to "not be burdened" with a baby (and there's always adoption, anyway). Besides, rape is not the unborn child's fault!

Nibs · 11-14-2002, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silverstripe
That can only be true if you consider the fetus to be a non-person.

Not necessarily.

Quote:

Originally posted by Silverstripe
Besides, rape is not the unborn child's fault! [/B]

Nor is it the mother's.

Starr Polish · 11-14-2002, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nibs
Nor is it the mother's.

Unless she knew of the danger she was putting herself into and it could have been prevented.

11-13-2002, 06:35 AM	#22
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	Abortion? Ah, too complicated, I'll come back to it another time! Certainly too complicated for some of the black-and-white opinions that have been posted... Gun ownership? Not as clear-cut as it seems. While I think it would be insane for a country with no culture of gun ownership to suddenly permit it, going the other way is a different matter. The huge amount of guns circulating in the USA, for instance, will not disappear overnight. More pragmatically, the NRA is a very, very powerful lobby indeed, I wonder how many presidential candidates would want to tangle with it. Perhaps the question should be how to stop people who own guns using them to kill people. According to the ICVS, gun ownership in England and Wales is below 5% (in terms of households). Homicide rates per 100,000 people for England and Wales of 97-99 averaged 1.45. USA gun ownership was estimated at 48.5% and the corresponding homicide rate was 6.26. Which seems to say something about gun ownership. But...gun ownership in Canada was estimated at 22% and their homicide rate of 1.85 wasn't that much higher than the England & Wales figure. Swiss gun ownership is about 36%, yet their homicide rate of 1.18 is LESS than many non gun-owning countries. OK there's all sorts of complications like number of guns per household, handguns v long guns etc, but maybe getting caught up in arguments about quantiies of hardware is the wrong approach. __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

11-13-2002, 12:45 PM	#24
Elenka The Negative Soul of Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Middle Distance Posts: 651	I feel like if a woman wants an abortion, she should be able to get one, but let it be a lesson to her. As far as guns are concerned, don't show your kids and don't take it out unless its an absolute emergency and you know how to use it. __________________ W00T for the M00T!! War doesn't determine who is right - war determines who is left.

11-13-2002, 01:29 PM	#25
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	As soon as the egg is fertilized, a living human being begins to grow. If I had aborted either one of my children (at any stage) they would not be here today. Therefor, I feel That abortion is murder. ( I always felt the anti-abortion slogan "It stops a beating heart, to ring true, I can't help it, I'm usually fairly liberal, but hey, it's true!) If you could murder your growing child, that's your call at this time. I could never do this. Free birth control should be easily avaible to all, but abstinence works great too! If a woman really wants an abortion, I supose she should be able to get a safe one, but I think people should be more open about what's going on to the new life and the mother. Abortion is very painful, not good for your body, and will probably linger in your mind for the rest of your life. Wouldn't it be easier to use birth controll, and have your sex life "together". Handguns, People have had guns, rifles etc, in the USA since the beginning. We live in the country and need our rifle for shooting coyotes that try to kill our pets. Also vicious stray dogs come around, racoons that are diseased need to be shot and put out of their misery. My father was in WW2, Vietnam, and Korea. He had an assortment of guns, after spending a lifetime in the military it was a hobby he enjoyed. My husband likes to hunt, and enjoys target practice. I just don't see guns being made illegal in the USA. As someone said, there are way too many for starters, so they just need to make it as difficult as possible for "NUTS" to get a hold of them. It will be impossible to elimate sick people misusing handguns unfortunately. It's not a perfect world. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

11-13-2002, 04:19 PM	#26
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	In my ideal world, all handguns are locked up tight when not in use,labeled, and registered. Unfortunately, this isn't my ideal world. But still, I believe guns should be locked against kids. The scene in the "Sixth Sense" involving a ghost of a kid and a gun still scares me slightly. As for abortion,I'm against it totally. But more later...15 minutes is up. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

11-13-2002, 05:14 PM	#27
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	I'm anti-abortion but pro-choice in the case of incest and rape. When I talk about abortion, I envision a fetus that has the potential of being born and living life as all of us do. Abortion keeps that from happening. Until more research is done to find out when the child is truly alive, it will be alive when the law says so. I'm not one to say that abortion is murder in the strict sense of the word, but I would have a difficult time living with that decision, were I in the position to have done so. As for firearms, I think more action towards teaching people about safe use would benefit more than stiffer regulations. Perhaps an elementary school-aimed program to teach children about safety and precaustion when using such things. Could avert many an unfortunate death. Seems kinda funny... I recall having behavior-health classes similar in nature, except to avert the first travesty. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

11-13-2002, 08:41 AM	#23
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	So for all you pro-choicers. When does a child go from being a "fetus" to being a "human" and what right do you have to say that?

11-13-2002, 05:20 PM	#28
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	I think abortion is wrong, but sometimes, unfortunately, necessary. I feel uncomfortable making a judgement on this topic, however, because I can't be at all sure I would stick to the views I can so glibly explain here if I were really in that situation. I hope so, but I don't know. So no further comment. On handguns, I don't quite understand how it can be right (or a right) to possess a gun for self-defence, but not for attacking someone else. It's not always a simple distinction. At least if guns are against the law and someone has one (or has one without a licence), you know they don't own it for peaceful purposes because they've broken the law to get it. Whether it's feasible to ban handguns entirely or not is another matter. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

11-13-2002, 05:29 PM	#30
elvendrummer87 Enting Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: new jersey Posts: 80	I am TOTALLY against abortion! I know people have said it before, but that fetus isn't just a fetus , it's a life ! I try (though not always succesful) to live by the rule "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." You wouldn't be around today if your mother had decided that she didn't want you then. If you don't want the responsibility of a kid, then you shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

11-13-2002, 07:22 PM	#31
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	Legalised firearms in N.I? I enjoy being able to walk outside thank you very much.

11-13-2002, 08:55 PM	#33
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Aeryn? Have you actually been through an abortion? I would hardly say that it is an easy decision for ANY woman to make. I had to stand by a friend's decision to have a termination, and she just about had a mental breakdown! And the next time she fell pregnant, she decided to keep it. Please don't generalise like that. Not every woman is a serial abortionist. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

11-13-2002, 08:59 PM	#34
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	Serial abortionist? I like that, I'll use that in my next rant. Well BoP studies are generalization. And for the sake of expressing my point I used one. shrug __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

11-14-2002, 07:42 AM	#36
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I've know women who have used abortion as birth control, I've also known women who have agonized, and cried over the decision, the pain, and the ramifications the abortion had on their reproductive systems. Both "birth control" women were the types that would rather die than have someone tell them what to do, (no matter if it was good advice or bad, just rebellion ruled their life) and both also were in very loose, wild phases of their lives concerning sex, and drugs and drink. I guess you either care or you don't, I don't know???? My point is that birth control is so much easier. I've used the pill, (simple), an IUD, (rather painful), the shot, (Depra-provera, easiest by far)and the sponge,(they took it off the market). All worked, all kept me out of the abortion dilemma!! whewwww! I would have an unwanted child and give it up for adoption. I would never want "that" ( killing, stopping whatever you call ending a life) on my conscience. I would NEVER have peace of mind again. Remember, (IMO) premarital sex is pretty much overrated, and not worth all the grief an unwanted pregnancy might cause. Sorry if I sound preachy, just the voice of experience hoping to shed some light! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 11-14-2002 at 07:45 AM.