The last 3 to be made?

Sween · 11-10-2004, 03:34 PM

It is stated in the Sil that the 3 elven rings were the last 3 to be made before Sauron took up the one ring. Now were these the fullfilment of the Elves or mearly as all there perdecessors mear triffals in craft? I mean surly they ment to make better or as powerfull rings for differents purposes? If so what do you think they would of been?

Wayfarer · 11-10-2004, 03:41 PM

The Three were the most powerful rings that the elves made. They were, in fact, successful in doing what the elves wanted all along - allowing their wielder to hold back time and keep things they way that they wanted them to be. This is what allowed Elrond and Galadrial to maintain Rivendell and Lorien, respectively.

Attalus · 11-10-2004, 04:10 PM

I suspect that there was a learning curve for Elven smiths just like for any craft. The Rings would have been improved on with each repetition until the culmination of the Three. I further suspect that the Sixteen were variably powerful until Sauron corrupted them, making them homogenous, more or less.

Sween · 11-11-2004, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attalus

I suspect that there was a learning curve for Elven smiths just like for any craft. The Rings would have been improved on with each repetition until the culmination of the Three. I further suspect that the Sixteen were variably powerful until Sauron corrupted them, making them homogenous, more or less.

Yeah but my point is after ther three were made was that the end of the matter? did they not intend to make anymore? i mean thats is a completally hypothetical thread but its intresting to think what they might make and if they could of made a ring so potent to acctuaolly challenge the one

The Gaffer · 11-11-2004, 04:23 AM

I think there's a reference somewhere that when Sauron made the One, Celebrimbor became aware of him and his intent regarding the bearers of the other rings.

It would make sense, then, that the Elves realised that they had been partly duped into making these Rings, and that they made them vulnerable to Sauron. Hence, perhaps, it would be too risky to make any more.

However, there are strong hints in the Hobbit and LOTR that there were other, lesser Rings in existence.

Wayfarer · 11-11-2004, 01:35 PM

If by 'strong hints' you mean 'flat out declarations' then yes.

Sween · 11-11-2004, 02:32 PM

But if he had delayed making the one how many rings of power more would of been made?

Telcontar_Dunedain · 11-11-2004, 03:23 PM

Few if any I'd say. For in The Sil it says that Feanor could not make the Silmaril's like ever again so it is likely that Celebrimbor couldn't make any Rings of that power ever again.

Durin1 · 11-12-2004, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Few if any I'd say. For in The Sil it says that Feanor could not make the Silmaril's like ever again so it is likely that Celebrimbor couldn't make any Rings of that power ever again.

Agree, to impart "magic" you are imparting much of your natural essence (Sauron being a classic example). It would have just taken too much out of Celebrimbor to have made any more powerful Rings comparable to the 3 that he, alone made.

***Earniel*** · 11-12-2004, 01:25 PM

I think that any ring the Elves would make after the forging of the One Ring would always be overruled by the One Ring. It's then kind of pointless to make other rings, IMO.

Attalus · 11-12-2004, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I think that any ring the Elves would make after the forging of the One Ring would always be overruled by the One Ring. It's then kind of pointless to make other rings, IMO.

I agree. Whatever technique Sauron taught them was obviously designed to have this one key put in its lock, so any future rings made would always be subject to the One, absent radical new technique.

Sween · 11-14-2004, 03:23 PM

You have all clearly missed the point somewhat! the point is what would of happened if sauron had delayed taking up the one ring? what other ringts would the elves of made or was that the end of the matter? were the three the culmination of all there desires or was there more for them to set there mind one. was sauron rather hasty to take up and make the one?

***Fat middle*** · 11-14-2004, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sween

You have all clearly missed the point somewhat! the point is what would of happened if sauron had delayed taking up the one ring? what other ringts would the elves of made or was that the end of the matter? were the three the culmination of all there desires or was there more for them to set there mind one. was sauron rather hasty to take up and make the one?

Interesting point, Sween.

Considering that Tolkien said that the elves have some part of the guilt for trying to alter the world with the rings, we can suppose that although Sauron had not created the One the elves would keep forging more powerful rings able to alter the world into something more similar to their beloved "paradises lost": Beleriand, Tol Eressëa or Valinor... and that could be a bad thing for humans or dwarfs.

***Earniel*** · 11-14-2004, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sween

You have all clearly missed the point somewhat!

Oh. Eh. Sorry.

Supposing Sauron hadn't made the One Ring, I think the Elves would have continued forging rings. I don't think the Three was the best they could do.

Artanis · 11-15-2004, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Few if any I'd say. For in The Sil it says that Feanor could not make the Silmaril's like ever again so it is likely that Celebrimbor couldn't make any Rings of that power ever again.

I think Telcontar_Dunedain is making a valid point here.

Attalus · 11-15-2004, 02:54 PM

So, you all think that the Three were like Gleowine's elegy of Theoden, and he would have made no rings afterward? I don't agree. I think he would have gone on making Rings, for that was his besetting sin, to make artefacts that would make Middle-earth more like Valinor. I'm not sure that would be bad for Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits, though. They all admired Lothlorien and Imladris and wanted to stay in those places as long as possible.

***Earniel*** · 11-15-2004, 03:57 PM

I wouldn't call it his sin, but I agree he wouldn't have stopped making Rings. The Silmarils could not be remade (and not only because the Trees were lost) but I always had the impression the smiths of Eregion were not yet to their master piece in Ringcraft when Sauron made the One Ring.

ItalianLegolas · 12-11-2004, 04:01 PM

well i guess it would only make sense that the elven rings were forged last so that the craft could be perfected, because it was the elves who got tricked into making the rings to begin with

Pytt · 12-11-2004, 04:21 PM

I think they would have gone on, making rings. Feanor could never make comparsions to the Sils again, but as I see it, this don't work with Celebrimbor. the rings he made, even the three elven rings, can't be compared to the three sils in beauty nor perfection. I think he would have made more, but maybe after a time, he also would have been exasuted. but in the meantime, he would have gone on making rings. I don't think the three rings are the best that could be made. But for what purpose they should be made, I don't know.

Elemmírë · 12-11-2004, 04:51 PM

Hm. This is probably a somewhat different take on it:

warning: Random Thought

Could Sauron have waited any longer to make the One Ring? Assuming that the Three were not the apex of Celebrimbor's skill (probably speculation either way), most likely any that were made afterwards would be even more powerful.

The smiths of Eregion had Sauron's help in the forging of all the rings save for the last three, right? IMHO, the Elves seem to constantly be getting more independent in their work... The last three Sauron never even touched. However, they were still bound to the One.

Would it have possibly been otherwise if Celebrimbor had gotten any better at creating the Rings?

Hey, btw, does anyone know if the Nine and the Seven were of equal strength?

11-10-2004, 03:34 PM	#1
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	The last 3 to be made? It is stated in the Sil that the 3 elven rings were the last 3 to be made before Sauron took up the one ring. Now were these the fullfilment of the Elves or mearly as all there perdecessors mear triffals in craft? I mean surly they ment to make better or as powerfull rings for differents purposes? If so what do you think they would of been? __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

11-10-2004, 03:41 PM	#2
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	The Three were the most powerful rings that the elves made. They were, in fact, successful in doing what the elves wanted all along - allowing their wielder to hold back time and keep things they way that they wanted them to be. This is what allowed Elrond and Galadrial to maintain Rivendell and Lorien, respectively. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-10-2004, 04:10 PM	#3
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I suspect that there was a learning curve for Elven smiths just like for any craft. The Rings would have been improved on with each repetition until the culmination of the Three. I further suspect that the Sixteen were variably powerful until Sauron corrupted them, making them homogenous, more or less. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

11-11-2004, 01:35 PM	#6
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	If by 'strong hints' you mean 'flat out declarations' then yes. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-11-2004, 02:32 PM	#7
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	But if he had delayed making the one how many rings of power more would of been made? __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

11-11-2004, 04:23 AM	#5
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	I think there's a reference somewhere that when Sauron made the One, Celebrimbor became aware of him and his intent regarding the bearers of the other rings. It would make sense, then, that the Elves realised that they had been partly duped into making these Rings, and that they made them vulnerable to Sauron. Hence, perhaps, it would be too risky to make any more. However, there are strong hints in the Hobbit and LOTR that there were other, lesser Rings in existence.

11-11-2004, 03:23 PM	#8
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Few if any I'd say. For in The Sil it says that Feanor could not make the Silmaril's like ever again so it is likely that Celebrimbor couldn't make any Rings of that power ever again. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

11-12-2004, 01:25 PM	#10
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I think that any ring the Elves would make after the forging of the One Ring would always be overruled by the One Ring. It's then kind of pointless to make other rings, IMO. __________________ We are not things.

11-14-2004, 03:23 PM	#12
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	You have all clearly missed the point somewhat! the point is what would of happened if sauron had delayed taking up the one ring? what other ringts would the elves of made or was that the end of the matter? were the three the culmination of all there desires or was there more for them to set there mind one. was sauron rather hasty to take up and make the one? __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

11-15-2004, 02:54 PM	#16
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	So, you all think that the Three were like Gleowine's elegy of Theoden, and he would have made no rings afterward? I don't agree. I think he would have gone on making Rings, for that was his besetting sin, to make artefacts that would make Middle-earth more like Valinor. I'm not sure that would be bad for Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits, though. They all admired Lothlorien and Imladris and wanted to stay in those places as long as possible. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

11-15-2004, 03:57 PM	#17
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I wouldn't call it his sin, but I agree he wouldn't have stopped making Rings. The Silmarils could not be remade (and not only because the Trees were lost) but I always had the impression the smiths of Eregion were not yet to their master piece in Ringcraft when Sauron made the One Ring. __________________ We are not things.

12-11-2004, 04:01 PM	#18
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	well i guess it would only make sense that the elven rings were forged last so that the craft could be perfected, because it was the elves who got tricked into making the rings to begin with __________________ What was lost is now found.

12-11-2004, 04:21 PM	#19
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	I think they would have gone on, making rings. Feanor could never make comparsions to the Sils again, but as I see it, this don't work with Celebrimbor. the rings he made, even the three elven rings, can't be compared to the three sils in beauty nor perfection. I think he would have made more, but maybe after a time, he also would have been exasuted. but in the meantime, he would have gone on making rings. I don't think the three rings are the best that could be made. But for what purpose they should be made, I don't know. __________________ Don't Panic!

12-11-2004, 04:51 PM	#20
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Hm. This is probably a somewhat different take on it: warning: Random Thought Could Sauron have waited any longer to make the One Ring? Assuming that the Three were not the apex of Celebrimbor's skill (probably speculation either way), most likely any that were made afterwards would be even more powerful. The smiths of Eregion had Sauron's help in the forging of all the rings save for the last three, right? IMHO, the Elves seem to constantly be getting more independent in their work... The last three Sauron never even touched. However, they were still bound to the One. Would it have possibly been otherwise if Celebrimbor had gotten any better at creating the Rings? Hey, btw, does anyone know if the Nine and the Seven were of equal strength? __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 12-11-2004 at 04:54 PM.

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