Swords in the Troll's Cave

[Gordis]

Thanks for the quote, Landroval.

Some hoard... That means still that a Gondolin elf was killed in the Second or the Third age, as otherwise the weapons would have been drowned with Beleriand.

I think my explanation is also plausible, as at the times of "the Hobbit" the conception of Rhudaur and the Angmar wars had not yet arisen.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

there is one version of the forging of the rings, IIRC, that says that Celebrimbor was an elf of gondolin, and he lived in eregion in the second age, seems plausible to me that he would have swords from gondolin...

[Gordis]

In the Second Age Celebrimbor lived in Eregion, indeed, till he was slain by Sauron around SA 1695. So whatever may have been saved from Ost-in Edil could have found ist way to Moria nearby.

But Celebrimbor was not from Gondolin, but from Nargothrond. He was a son of Curufin, son of Feanor, who decided to stay with Orodreth.

There was tumult in Nargothrond. For thither now returned many Elves that had been prisoners in the isle of Sauron; and a clamour arose that no words of Celegorm could still. They lamented bitterly the fall of Felagund their king, saying that a maiden had dared that which the sons of Fëanor had not dared to do; but many perceived that it was treachery rather than fear that had guided Celegorm and Curufin. There fore the hearts of the people of Nargothrond were released from their dominion, and turned again to the house of Finarfin; and they obeyed Orodreth. But he would not suffer them to slay the brothers, as some desired, for the spilling of kindred blood by kin would bind the cures of Mandos more closely upon them all. Yet neither bread nor rest would he grant to Celegorm and Curufin within his realm, and he swore that there should be little love between Nargothrond and the sons of Fëanor there after.

'Let it be so!' said Celegorm, and there was a light of menace in his eyes; but Curufin smiled. Ten they took horse and rode away like fire, to find if they might their kindred in the east. But none would go with them, not even those that were of their own people; for all perceived that the curse lay heavily upon the brothers, and that evil followed them. In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin repudiated the deeds of his father, and remained in Nargothrond; yet Huan followed still the horse of Celegorm his master.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Thinking about this a little more - I think JRRT boxed himself in with the notion that the Elves never re-used a name. That each one had a unique name unto themselves. Seems unrealistic, since the various groups of Elves were always out of contact with one another for great lengths of times. Two different Elves named Glorfindel? So what? Makes sense that a lot of Elves would name their new son after a famous hero slain in the Fall of Gondolin.

This idea seems to get posted on the web now and then, but as far as I recall Tolkien didn't write that Elves never re-used a name, and in The Lord of the Rings itself we appear to have two Elves named Rúmil, for instance.

Tolkien wrote -- and only in the very late text in which he considered the case of Glorfindel -- that the name Glorfindel itself should not be repeated... but that said, to my mind his reasoning in this text (again, which was written very late and never published by the author in any case, which I think means that he should feel no great pressure to stand by it) doesn't seem all that compelling to me. Anyway, even if we accept JRRT's reasoning there, generally speaking Elves can have the same name. In the same late text JRRT notes an example that could be repeated, Galdor, and in my opinion the The Shibboleth of Feanor seems to suggest that a number of Elves named their children Argon, in honour of Arakano.

Earlier (Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien noted that certain Elves tried to keep the specific type of name known as the "Chosen-name" (which is suggested to represent a Noldorin custom) unique, but that as time went on, even the Chosen-name could be repeated [note: Christopher Tolkien wondered if this type of Chosen-name, chosen by Elf-children after their lámatyáve had kicked in, was retained in later years, as the admittedly more brief discussion of Elven-naming in The Shibboleth of Feanor does not mention it].

Again that was only one kind of name in any event.

As a side note: even earlier than the publication of The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Christopher Tolkien explained what his father had decided about Glorfindel, although yes, the actual Glorfindel essays (one of them is incomplete) were not published until HME 12...

... or The Peoples of Middle-Earth

Edit: interestingly, according to late texts Nerdanel named her last two sons Ambarussa, although Feanor desired that this should not be so, and admittedly this could be an arguably unique scenario.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

...according to late texts Nerdanel named her last two sons Ambarussa, although Feanor desired that this should not be so, and admittedly this could be an arguably unique scenario.

They were twins. It is as if she did not care for the difference between them; but later one was killed by his father.

Back to the original thesis of the thread: Surely the swords were taken as loot by Morgoth’s army after the Fall of Gondolin. Then, as Elrond surmised, the original hoard of loot was looted by others, perhaps several times, until their journey ended in the trolls’ cave. In which case (to paraphrase Gandalf) some other power was at work, and Gandalf was meant to have Glamdring.

I’ve also thought that Glamdring and Orcrist were a matched pair: Wealthy princes in our real world sometimes had two swords made together, so that if his first broke, the prince would have another, identical sword immediately at hand to replace it. I think that perhaps Aranrúth and Narsil might be swords of the same sort: a pair made by Telchar for Thingol. Narsil would then have been an appropriate gift by Tar-Elendil to his grandson Valandil of Andúnië; besides had the law Tar-Aldarion put in place to pass the throne to Tar-Telperion been enacted in Silmariën’s day, Valandil, not Aldarion, would have been King of Númenor.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

They were twins. It is as if she did not care for the difference between them; but later one was killed by his father.

True, but I add this example as: often enough I bump into the idea that Tolkien's Elves cannot have the same name, but even here (with the brothers Ambarussa) Tolkien mentions nothing about some sort of broken rule with respect to naming. And as I say, even if this scenario is considered unique, I'm not aware of any text that sweepingly or generally states that Elves cannot have the same name.

With respect to Glorfindel: if the Elf of Imladris had been named after the Elf of Gondolin, we would have to consider some things, the most important (in my opinion) being that Tolkien had just about stated (as he himself realized) that Glorfindel of Imladris was an Elf from Aman (an Elf-lord from beyond the Sea).

I suppose one could get around the issue of hair colour, as "names become names" and a person having a name that means "gold tressed" doesn't necessarily have to have golden hair (however expected in Tolkien's world)... and that said, Glorfindel of Imladris had golden hair anyway.

Tolkien had also published the general idea that the Eldar were dark-haired except for the House of Finarfin, though in my opinion this can be a fairly general "truth" concerning the Eldar, allowing exceptions outside of Finarfin's House as long as the general principle remains true (see also the author-published definition of Eldar in Appendix F).

Anyway I don't want to get sidetracked about hair... or do I?

But any-anyway, Tolkien decided that there should not be two Elves named Glorfindel, which of course is not the same as deciding that other names cannot be repeated among Elves.

Not that anyone said otherwise, specifically!

[Galin]

By the way, for the thread in general, I want to stress the if in if above... in other words, I'm aware that JRRT decided that there was only one Glorfindel.