Who Knew About Frodo’s Ring?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The Dwarves were at that point Sauron's only substantial lead. He would have to sound them out whether he believed he'd get something out of them or not. …
Or maybe Sauron didn't expect the Dwarves to talk directly to him, but just needed to shake them up a bit. Talk of Bilbo's Ring may not have been common, but stirring up talk of Sauron's emissary and his promisses or threats to Dale and the Mountain may have been a worthy task on its own. … It unsettled DaÃ*n enough to seek out Elrond's counsel. …

At the Council of Elrond, Glóin told those gathered,

I have been sent at last by Dáin to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn, if may be, why he desires this ring… Also we crave the advice of Elrond. … We discover that messengers have come also to King Brand in Dale, and that he is afraid. We fear that he may yield.

Dáin was a good and wise king: he and his court regarded Bilbo as their friend and ally. Dwarves are famous as faithful allies. They sent to warn him of his peril. But they were also concerned that their principle ally, Brand of Dale, would give in to threats. (He did not, and died fighting beside Dáin six months later.)

Since Thráin’s ring was never recovered, the Dwarves also legitimately ask, what of Bilbo’s ring, this “least of rings.” Why all the fuss? Might it be Thráin’s ring? (I expect Glóin would have made an immediate but polite demand that Frodo turn Thráin’s ring over immediately. It doesn’t sound as if he wanted Sauron’s ring!) And if not, why is it so important? Good questions: smart Dwarves.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Yes, it's never really spelled out, but you do get the impressions that magic rings, or at least stories about them, were not unheard of among many of the mortal races. It would at least partly explain why Bilbo's ring's true identity remained unclear for so long.

Right. My conclusion, too; but it took me over 40 years to reach it.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I got the impression that Gandalf only pressed for the true story much later… It … likely would have been before Gandalf sought out the Gondorean archives.

Certainly.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It pays to bear in mind that the Ring had a rather different on Hobbits than it had on Men.

It surprised Sauron and certainly the Nazgûl, who were familiar with the effects of their Rings on them.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

If Gandalf suspected Bilbo's ring was the One Ring, and if the known effects he was expecting from such a powerful thing didn't manifest in Bilbo when they would have in Men, wouldn't that argue for the case that Bilbo's ring was not the One Ring, but rather one of the (apparently sufficiently numerous) lesser magical rings?

I think you are right, Eärniel.

───◊───

I think this is a fair representation of how matters stood at the end of the Council of Elrond. How says the ’Moot? Would Aragorn tell Halbarad, who acted as steward or marshal of Arnor?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Since Thráin’s ring was never recovered, the Dwarves also legitimately ask, what of Bilbo’s ring, this “least of rings.� Why all the fuss? Might it be Thráin’s ring? (I expect Glóin would have made an immediate but polite demand that Frodo turn Thráin’s ring over immediately. It doesn’t sound as if he wanted Sauron’s ring!) And if not, why is it so important? Good questions: smart Dwarves.

If Tolkien had wanted to make a political thriller, rather than a mythological epos, this would have been a powerful hook right here. What if there had been no sure way of finding out whether it was the One Ring? What if it for all points and purposes could easily have passed as ThraÃ*n's ring and the Dwarves would have liked to have it back? They wouldn't have taken a 'no' for very long.

Right. My conclusion, too; but it took me over 40 years to reach it.

You shouldn't take it as a bad thing. Isn't it amazing that after 40 years a known text can still surprise you and make you change your mind?

I think this is a fair representation of how matters stood at the end of the Council of Elrond. How says the ’Moot? Would Aragorn tell Halbarad, who acted as steward or marshal of Arnor?

I don't think so, such knowledge might endanger Halbarad rather than help him do his job. Life spans of the remaining Arnorean Dúnedain were not so awesome. Besides, the plan had been to get Frodo out of the Shire and to Elrond, making what he carried not Arnor's problem soon enough.

I am wondering whether Gandalf would have told Thranduil. Sindarin Elves had less to do with the Rings than the Elves of Noldorin descent and may not find them so significant. But Thranduil was involved to keep Gollum contained and I realise I don't remember enough of that part to determine whether Thranduil could have been told. A re-read may be in order.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

What if there had been no sure way of finding out whether it was the One Ring? What if it for all points and purposes could easily have passed as ThraÃ*n's ring and the Dwarves would have liked to have it back? They wouldn't have taken a 'no' for very long.

That was probably part of Glóin’s mission. On the other hand, in “The Council of Elrond”, Gandalf said,

The Nine, the Seven, and the Three had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as if it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read.

I suspect the Dwarves knew the Ring of the House of Durin had a stone; but since the Dwarvish kings were so secretive about their Ring of Power, it may be that none of them had ever seen it.

[Added hours later:] “It was round and unadorned, as if it were one of the lesser rings.” It looked like a lesser ring! It seems Gandalf had seen a lesser ring before.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Isn't it amazing that after 40 years a known text can still surprise you and make you change your mind?

That’s why I keep reading Tolkien – and posting at Entmoot! We sometimes forget that Tolkien’s mythos was not twelve or twenty years’ of work, but the product of a lifetime of professional engagement with the real world. Arda, the Elves, Men, and Hobbits are all players on a stage for his models of language, language built to reflect his studies and theories of real world languages and histories. I think this is his working model of our world, cast into literature and story.

Still, I wish I’d caught that earlier. I think I recall something of it, long ago, but set it aside and focused my attention on other things.

[Also added hours later:] Yeah. Yeah, a known text that still surprises me after more than 40 years.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't think so, such knowledge might endanger Halbarad rather than help him do his job. Life spans of the remaining Arnorean Dúnedain were not so awesome. Besides, the plan had been to get Frodo out of the Shire and to Elrond, making what he carried not Arnor's problem soon enough.

I’m inclined to agree. The fewer people who know the secret, the better kept it will be. There is always the danger Halbarad or one of the other Dúnedain Rangers of old Arnor would be captured and tortured or subjected to magic of some sort, whether a “truth serum” of the Nazgûl or some spell. (Cf. the story of Gorlim the Unhappy in the Tale of Beren and Lúthien.) Still, I have to ask.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I am wondering whether Gandalf would have told Thranduil. Sindarin Elves had less to do with the Rings than the Elves of Noldorin descent and may not find them so significant. But Thranduil was involved to keep Gollum contained and I realise I don't remember enough of that part to determine whether Thranduil could have been told. A re-read may be in order.

That it was discussed, I have no doubt. Even if Gandalf did not tell him outright, the Elvenking (Thranduil, though not called by his right name in The Hobbit) understood that Bilbo was able to move about invisibly, as clearly indicated in the second-to-last chapter, “The Return Journey”:

“I beg of you,” said Bilbo stammering and standing on one foot, “to accept this gift!” and he brought out a necklace of silver and pearls…

“In what way have I earned such a gift, O hobbit?” said the king.

“Well, … I thought, …” said Bilbo rather confused, “that … some little return should be made for your … hospitality. I mean even a burglar has his feelings. I have drunk much of your wine and eaten much of your bread.”

“I will take your gift, O Bilbo the Magnificent!” said the king gravely. “And I name you elf-friend and blessed. May your shadow never grow less (or stealing would be too easy)! Farewell!”

And with the perspective of the fading of the Elves made clear in the rest of Tolkien’s corpus, “May your shadow never grow less,” is loaded with meaning, not merely that the Elvenking seems to be aware that even when wearing his ring, Bilbo cast a shadow in the noonday sun. From the earlier thread, “Who Knew about Bilbo’s Ring?”

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t know that Gandalf told the Elvenking about Bilbo’s ring, though I strongly suspect he did. After the Dwarves’ escape from his forest fortress, he must have thoroughly investigated the circumstances: any notion that the chief of the guards would deliberately or accidentally free the Dwarves was ridiculous on its face. The Elvenking was both wise and ancient. He must have seen many strange things in his life. It would not take him long to determine that there must have been an invisible thief lurking about his palace, and that this thief was a companion of Thorin & Co. If Gandalf did not at first offer intelligence about Bilbo and his magic ring, I think the Elvenking would ask him if knew anything about an invisible thief, and whether this thief and Bilbo might be one and the same, just to confirm his guess; and if he asked, I think it likely Gandalf would have told him.

That’s what I think – for now, at any rate. I find that as I go on, some things I thought clear enough become less clear, and my opinions change: For long years I was convinced the Balrog in Moria had wings; now I don’t. (And I hope someone takes issue with that position!)

[Valandil]

Maybe this is better suited for a separate thread - but I don't suppose the Dwarf Rings would confer invisibility to a wearer, would they? Or perhaps they would to a human or halfling wearer - though it's doubtful that any of those ever wore a Dwarf Ring. Makes it all the easier for me to think that Bilbo had found some sort of "invisibility ring" - which they had likely heard ancient tales about.

Which of the great rings WOULD make a human invisible, and/or - which wearers of great rings would become invisible when wearing them?

[Earniel]

Interesting topic, Val, but I would agree that that discussion deserves its own thread.

[Jonathan]

Alcuin, that is one fantastic representation in many ways
Thank you!