About orcs...

I don´t know if you have discussed that before, but i want to know the different theories you may have about orcs´ genesis. I cannot remember what exact references may exist in the books, but i believed there are some whispered rumours saying that orcs could be elfs corrupted by Morgoth and that uruk-hai could be men corrupted by Saruman. Thouhg i didn´t know what sort of corruption was it refering, i always assume that as their true origin. However, yesterday when i was reading an excellent essay about Tom Bombadil´s identity (link provided by Hernalt in other thread), i found these lines: "There are, finally, two accounts given by Tolkien of the origins of the Orcs, both of which cannot be true." Anybody knows what accounts is that refering and why aren´t they possible?

In the Silmarillion, Tolkien says the Orcs were Elves corrupted by Morgoth. At the beginning of the Elves, Morgoth's spies were able to capture Elves that wandered too far away from their homes, and from these Elves Morgoth bred the Orcs. However, the Sil. was published after JRRT's death and when JRRT died in 1973, the Sil. was far from finished. JRRT's son, Christopher, was left with the job of putting the Sil together from lots of variant texts left by JRRT. Some of these texts were more finished than others, and Christopher tended to use the more finished texts to put Sil together, even if the more finished text didn't represent JRRT's latest thinking on a given subject. (JRRT tended to change his mind a lot on certain matters; the Sil evolved and changed as it's author grew older.) The origin of the orcs is an example of where Tolkien changed his mind near the end of his life. Christopher printed the story in the Sil because it was the most developped idea on the origin of orcs. But JRRT decided later that it didn't happen that way, but never fully explained where the orcs came from. Christopher later regretted what he did with Sil and that's why he published The History of Middle Earth Series, which contains 12 volumes. It bascially contains all the variant texts for the SIL, Hobbit and LOTR. It shows the evolution of JRRT's world from it's beginning in 1916 to the early 70's. It also has some random essays on Middle Earth that don't fit into any story. I haven't read all of this. It can get rather boring in places because Christopher is always adding his comments and sometimes there's about 5 versions of one story, with just a few words changed. That said, there also some real gems, too. I can personnally only read little bits at a time.

Thanks Eruve! But i´d swore there´s something about the Huruk-Hai origin in LOTR which might justified the elven origin of orcs. If it is in LOTR then i think we can take it as i definitive version. What do you think? BTW, i don´t think Christopher published The History of Middle Earth because he was regretted. I think he did it for the money I do the same as you, i only pick some paragraphs each time.

I think it's speculated somewhere in LOTR that Saruman bred Dunlendings or whatever other men he could capture with regular orcs to make the Uruk-hai. I'd have to dig for a reference, so I'll get back to you. I seem to remember the reason it was thought there was human blood in the Uruk-hai was because they marched by day as well as night (they weren't afraid of the sun) and they were bigger than the other orcs. Re Christopher and his regrets. He does state somewhere, I think it's in the intro to Unfinished Tales, that he regretted some of the editorial decisions he made while getting Sil. into publishable form. Doesn't rule out the fact that HOME has probably been a gold mine for him! ;-) BTW, you're right, what's printed in LOTR is definitely considered Tolkien "fact", much more so than Sil. is. Some of the changes Christopher had to make to Sil. were to bring it into agreement with LOTR.

Interesting. But weren't there Half-Orcs from Isengard too? I thought they were different from the Uruk-Hai. What about Trolls and the Olog-hai then? And don't feel bad about HoME... I couldn't get past the first chapter of Lost Tales :P

Neither could I I don't recall any Half-Orcs, unless the Uruk-Hai are them. And I was under the impression that Trolls, at least, were completely unrelated to the orcs.

Gene Hargrove mentioned "There are, finally, two accounts given by Tolkien of the origins of the Orcs, both of which cannot be true." Grey Havens discussed the mutually exclusive ideas: <FONT COLOR=GREEN>"In the legends of the Elder Days it is suggested that the Diabolus subjugated and corrupted some of the earliest Elves, before they had ever heard of the 'gods', let alone of God." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 191).</FONT> vs. <FONT COLOR=GREEN>"The essay on the origin of orcs fails to take into account "Morgoth's Ring", which is arguably much more valid than the Silmarillion. In it is stated that Tolkien specifically noted about the reference in the Silmarillion "change this, orcs are not elvish""</FONT> It's unsavory to think of orc females, but if it must be examined, the term 'brood' might supply how Orcs could be so disposably numerous. Namely, a brood of Orc-spawn would (at first) be undersized but durable sextuplets/septuplets/octuplets from either an Elvish or human mother, kept in a somewhat-endurable harem arrangement that they didn't just die of hardship. We'd have to surmise that they didn't have the most compassionate or attractive lovers. Not like King Monkut. As more Orcish females were born and raised, these could endure less comforts than their human and elvish peers, until human/Elvish mothers were phased out altogether. So to keep my disgust to a minimum, I just think that the sorry stage of using Elvish/ human parents lasted only the first few years, until Morgoth had mutated their offspring into the shapes and attitudes he wanted, at which time he no longer needed a constant supply of new genetic input from stray Elve/Human males and females. But if the Orcs' description indicates that they were already biologically degenerative, then fresh genetic input may have been necessary from time to time, perish the thought.

Thanks, Hernalt. You always have the best links I found very interesting the idea of an animal origin of Orcs with the added feature of speaking provided by Sauron. Only Eru can create free-will beings, but are the orcs free? I don´t think so. "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." Do you know that quote? And if they aren´t intelligent they cannot be free. Your explanation about orcs corruption is very interesting but... aaagh, i´d rather not to think to much in it. Poor elves...

All I know besides what you people tell me is that Orcs are ugly and evil.

Here are some references for Saruman's orcs and half orcs. Feel free to add more if anyone knows of any. I only quickly skimmed through Book III, so I might have missed something. On p. 48 of my edition (paperback) where Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli meet the Riders of Rohan, Eomer describes the orcs from Isengard as being "stronger and more fell than all others". In the following chapter, "The Uruk-hai", we see that the Isengarders are indeed bigger, stronger and faster than the others, and also they are not afraid of the sun as the others are. On p. 96, Treebeard has perhaps the most telling quote that I came across: "...[Saruman] has been doing something to them [orcs]; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even it they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the Races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!" Finally, Merry describes Saruman's troops as they march out of Isengard to the Battle of Helm's Deep (p. 218): "But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed." Then Aragorn refers to them as half-orcs immediately below.

I could be wrong, but I think I remember something about them being a sick version of dwarves. Also, I remember something about breading and inbreading different species' to create them.

Here I am again with more... Aren't I a persistant little cuss?? Fat Middle (and anyone else who's interested), there is a 5 page section in Morgoth's Ring (vol. 10 of HOME) in which JRRT was basically writing some random thoughts on orc origins. BTW I just got this volume for Christmas, but it seems so far to be a whole lot more readable than the other volumes I've tried to tackle. I highly recommend this one, even if you skip some of the others. Anyway, from this section it seems that JRRT never resolved the issue for himself. He was torn between them being evil beasts that may or may not have Elvish blood, evil Maiar of the lowest possible level, or corrupted Elves.

Thanks Eruve. Very interesting. I haven´t that book, but i´ll try to get it. Perhaps it´ll restore my confidence in Christopher Tolkien and his HOME.

[Jon S.]

One aspects of the orcs that has always troubled me is their ecology. Unless the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is being breached, orc armies in the numbers described in the Simarillion, LOTR, and the Hobbit would require a huge agricultural base to support yet there is no mention I can find of it in the books. If I'm missing something, please educate me!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Seems like Tolkien went back and forth and so even taking in all published thoughts on the Orc issue, there is no 'true' answer. If you think Orcs come from Elves, you could be correct. If you think they come from Men, you could be correct.

I'm thinking whoever had the magical corruption skillz could pretty much use Elves, Men, or blends, to make their own Orcs.

As for feeding them, the vast slave-worked fields are hinted at by Gandalf. But what about those in the Misty Mountain caves? Moss-eaters? Cannibals? Great question.