Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I got "self-hating" from this:
"I see what you're saying, but I think you're perceiving it wrong - it's for those who are struggling against their OWN unwanted homosexuality - it's their PERSONAL choice - they WANT to change."

Then I went on a rant in my head about possible motives behind that and got avoiding eternal damnation from my internal monologue, because I was kind of mad.

Why was I kind of mad? (Not at you, but at the idea of desiring to change one's sexuality.)

Because I can't even beging to imagine what kind of pressure someone must face (from family, friends, society, themselves, whoever), to want to change their sexuality. Sexuality is something you feel, it's not something you can blame yourself for or turn on and off like a switch. You can't go back to Sexuality-Mart and exchange it for one you like better.

I can't begin to imagine the pain someone must feel to want to change or deny a part of themselves like that. Your sexuality isn't like a bad habit that you should quit, it's part of who you are. It just is, it's not right or wrong.

Thank you Nurvi! Nurvingiel hit the nail on the head, here.
Absolutely. It really IS rankling and heartbreaking to know that there are people out there receiving that kind of mental and spiritual and emotional pressure and manipulation from groups in power such as right-wing religious conservatives and the like, people like Lief here who disagree, quoting "Jesus says in the bible" smugly and officiously to back up why he disagrees.

[Lotesse]

Furthurmore, Lief, homosexuality has nothing to do with lust. Sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with lust. It is NOT a "sin to struggle with," it is a part of who a person was born.

[Renille]

Eep. Changing sexualities...
From a psychological perspective (sort of...so far..) I've done minor research on this subject. The so called changing of sexualities is really really a battleground subject still. The reasons many people would want to NOT be homosexual are obvious: religion, friends, family pressure, self-induced guilt, etc. But whether you can actually CHANGE homosexual urges or not goes back to the roots of homosexuality in the first place. Lots of people think they're sociocultural and/or cognitive based on pressures from friends or an innate desire for attention.(This would be the choosing to be gay) However, there is also a large group of psychologists who thing homosexuality is based on biological reasons, from the same place heterosexual urges come from. There's some lobe in the brain that apparently is bigger in male homosexuals. I'll find that study eventually, I knew about it last year and then lost it. Oops.
However. If this study IS true, then it would almost completely eradicate the idea that homosexuality can be truly reversed. However, it's a VERY big possibility that homosexual urges can be suppressed, like any human urges can. I usually don't go in for Freud...but his defense mechanisms really do make sense. Rationalizing is a powerful tool...people can talk themselves into and out of a lot. I have no doubt that some people, with the help of spirituality, etc, can effectively talk themselves out of feeling homosexual urges. So I'm arguing semantics basically. But I'd still be a bit wary of actually saying someone can CHANGE their sexuality...a probably very biologically based sexaulity. You can hide it, yes, but I personally see no reason this should be necessary.The end!

[The last sane person]

Well, I am not suscribed to any religion or their respective books and I keep god in my heart. I think I am one of the luckier ones that can just hold open conversations with Him/Her/It. But what I have for my...ack...there really needs to be a better word for this...Beh Junam Bassteh. Its not lust, what desire there is is in the form of just wanting her near me.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Renille

Eep. Changing sexualities...
From a psychological perspective (sort of...so far..) I've done minor research on this subject. The so called changing of sexualities is really really a battleground subject still. The reasons many people would want to NOT be homosexual are obvious: religion, friends, family pressure, self-induced guilt, etc. But whether you can actually CHANGE homosexual urges or not goes back to the roots of homosexuality in the first place. Lots of people think they're sociocultural and/or cognitive based on pressures from friends or an innate desire for attention.(This would be the choosing to be gay) However, there is also a large group of psychologists who thing homosexuality is based on biological reasons, from the same place heterosexual urges come from. There's some lobe in the brain that apparently is bigger in male homosexuals. I'll find that study eventually, I knew about it last year and then lost it. Oops.
However. If this study IS true, then it would almost completely eradicate the idea that homosexuality can be truly reversed. However, it's a VERY big possibility that homosexual urges can be suppressed, like any human urges can. I usually don't go in for Freud...but his defense mechanisms really do make sense. Rationalizing is a powerful tool...people can talk themselves into and out of a lot. I have no doubt that some people, with the help of spirituality, etc, can effectively talk themselves out of feeling homosexual urges. So I'm arguing semantics basically. But I'd still be a bit wary of actually saying someone can CHANGE their sexuality...a probably very biologically based sexaulity. You can hide it, yes, but I personally see no reason this should be necessary.The end!

Thats a pretty good sum up. I have always seen "sexuality altering" as more or less equivalent to foot binding or neck stretching or such. In societies where tiny feet are ideal well theres going to be a huge pressure to conform to this ideal so you can feel "normal" and "right" and attractive. In our society there is of course HUGE pressure to be normal by being heterosexual. Especially among the religious. So rationalizing away ones true desires is certainly within the scope of some humans. Denial is a very strong weapon against reality you see. Unfortunately, in many many cases (according to some studies the vast majority of cases) these pseudo "conversions" dont work. Sexual thoughts and dreams of the same gender still occur. And many are never completely comfortable with or capable of maintaining an ideal "heterosexual life style" no matter how much therapy/hypnotism/exorcism etc they get.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

No, "Triple," silly! I know what you mean when you say you keep seeing things and keep wanting to respond to more stuff, in the same breath, like that. I do the same thing only I am the queen of post-editing - I end up going back, and back, and back like three or four times sometimes, on my post just to edit-to-add more stuff after re-reading other mooter's posts. I bet half the time most mooters never even get to read my posts in their entirety, because by the time I'm done edit-adding, it's been at least a good ten minutes since I first typed and posted the initial entry.

OK, I did it! I actually forced myself to read all of the new posts before responding to any! Go me!

I'll have to do a coupla posts here, tho, because my responses will be a bit long. But I'll try to keep all the short responses together in the future and avoid the unnecessary "triples" - I think the thread will be more readable that way.

I know what you mean about the editing, though, and that's another reason why I just make another post. I can't tell you how many times I've gone back to edit, even only after a few minutes, and then people totally miss what I had edited in, then I end up putting a lame post that says "Go back and read my edit", then I figured I might as well just do a new post instead of an edit because it's the same number of posts! (if that makes sense).

[/rambling]

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I got "self-hating" from this:
"I see what you're saying, but I think you're perceiving it wrong - it's for those who are struggling against their OWN unwanted homosexuality - it's their PERSONAL choice - they WANT to change."

Then I went on a rant in my head about possible motives behind that and got avoiding eternal damnation from my internal monologue, because I was kind of mad.

Why was I kind of mad? (Not at you, but at the idea of desiring to change one's sexuality.)

Because I can't even beging to imagine what kind of pressure someone must face (from family, friends, society, themselves, whoever), to want to change their sexuality. Sexuality is something you feel, it's not something you can blame yourself for or turn on and off like a switch. You can't go back to Sexuality-Mart and exchange it for one you like better.

I can't begin to imagine the pain someone must feel to want to change or deny a part of themselves like that. Your sexuality isn't like a bad habit that you should quit, it's part of who you are. It just is, it's not right or wrong.

That's why I was mad. Didn't mean to get bile on you there. *carefully cleans your sweater*

OK, thanks for the careful explanation - we're on the same page now.

Let me see if I can do a more careful explanation myself, and then see what you (and others) think.

Personally, and not looking at any other person - PERSONALLY, I find the idea of sex with women not appealing. PERSONALLY, I find the idea of sex with men appealing. Now that is a description of what some would call my sexual urges, my sexual orientation, my sexuality, etc. etc. That is what is in my HEAD (heart, whatever).

NOW - t'other day, there was a repairMAN here to fix our flooring. He had dark hair (I'm a sucker for dark hair!), and a GORGEOUS smile and eyes.

Question - why didn't I rip his and my clothes off and have crazy sex with him on our newly repaired flooring? After all, my sexual urges urged me to do that.

Answer - Because PERSONALLY, I think sex is a wonderful, fabulous, crazy-fun thing that is so special that it has its own environment to be in, in order to be at its absolute best. And that environment is a man/woman marriage.

NOW - can you see how my sexual urges (in my head) go against how I think those urges are best actually expressed? (OUT of my head) (except in the case of my husband, where my sexual urges line up with how I think those urges should be expressed).

Now, if I seriously had trouble refraining from tearing off repairman's clothing and having sex with them, then I would be THRILLED that there's a group out there that has people like me who have sexual urges that want to come out in ways that they, PERSONALLY, don't think are appropriate. I would jump at the opportunity to join such a group, and discuss with people like myself the different ways that they have found helpful to control those urges and express them in ways that they think are good and right. I'm not naively saying that all those urges will disappear; but I AM saying that there are ways to control those urges and help change the direction that they find their outlet.

I don't know if I'm expressing this well - think of it as a first cut - does it make sense? See, we ALL have sexual urges, and I think it's a 100% safe bet that ALL of us sometimes DO suppress their expression. For example, although I love having sex with my husband, if I think of it while we're in the grocery store, I will SUPPRESS the urge to "do it" right there. And although I love the idea of having sex with men, I SUPPESS the urge to have sex with just any man, because PERSONALLY I think it's right and best to only have sex with my husband. Do you see what I"m saying? In the same way, if a person who has homosexual urges and is expressing those urges in action comes to a PERSONAL decision that for THEM, it's not a good thing, then groups like the one I'm talking about are a wonderful help.

[The last sane person]

Well, I do hope you are just exagerating the tearing off clothes and having wild sex with someone thing because that's what your natural reproductive urges wanted you to do. Because that IS NOT what I would do, I just dont feel that. Gah....well, never mind. I like you Rian, goof that you are. I think that I understood what you ment to say. I'll leave it.

[Rían]

And I like you, too, you wild horsy archer and I hope things work out with your family - that's gotta be hard ...

(and the guy WAS pretty cute ... )

[The last sane person]

Hehehe...I am sure he was. One fo the best looking boys I had ever met was an Apache boy who I met stateside while mucking out stables. I admit, I did have a fling with the guy after I got to know him. I miss the fellow.... *le sigh*

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Careful, lest your lady feel the need to be jealous...

That particular feeling seems to apply regardless of orientation.

[The last sane person]

Well...He's a nice fellow, and we got to be very good friends. David Talltree was his name. (Sheesh, that is something I would expect out of a dime novel about the old west. But that really was his name....)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Absolutely. It really IS rankling and heartbreaking to know that there are people out there receiving that kind of mental and spiritual and emotional pressure and manipulation from groups in power such as right-wing religious conservatives and the like, people like Lief here who disagree, quoting "Jesus says in the bible" smugly and officiously to back up why he disagrees.

I was not arguing against homosexuality there. I was arguing that people who want to change their sexuality are not always doing so because of massive pressure and pain from the outside. When I wanted to change my sexuality so that I didn't experience any sort of lust, hetero or homo, I wasn't doing so because of outside pressure but because of a Bible verse I read. So people can want to change based on religion or their own instinct or reasoning, without being forced to want to change by pain. Though pain caused by other people's abuse, like Nurvi says, can also be a very ugly reason why some choose to change. Abuse is a very ugly reason, but it's an over-generalization to say it's the only reason.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Furthurmore, Lief, homosexuality has nothing to do with lust. Sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with lust. It is NOT a "sin to struggle with," it is a part of who a person was born.

When I talked about a "sin to struggle with", I was talking about my then perception on all lust period. Heterosexual or homosexual, I thought any lust except for a marital partner was bad. So I fought ruthlessly against all my lustful thoughts of any sort. I was talking about my own struggle there, not about homosexuality.

However, I do disagree with most of your above post in spite of the misinterpretations . I don't buy IR's claim that all the hundreds of thousands of homosexuals that have become heterosexual and now live happily married lives with children and full heterosexual pleasure and desire are just in denial . Besides, a lesbian I know who became heterosexual told me that in her social circle, people use to ridicule the one heterosexual girl for her heterosexuality. So that was an opposite pressure, and the change wouldn't have been denial in her case. The idea that the hundreds of thousands who have changed are all deluding themselves seems like quite a stretch to me, and I think that all of these examples are strong evidence that homosexuality is not genetic.

I also think the statistics from various countries, plus just everyday experience, indicate that homosexuality often brings more lust and promiscuity than heterosexuality.

Though Last Sane Person, I'm not arguing that your artistic pleasure in the beauty of people is lust. Taking pleasure in people's appearance, their attractiveness or what nice clothes they're wearing is just nice. I've experienced lust and I've experienced that simple appreciation, and they're definitely different.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

...I thought any lust except for a marital partner was bad.

(just a quick side note - IMO, any lust is bad, even for a marital partner, because IMO, lust means a desire to get sexual pleasure at the expense of another person, where love is mutual. IMO, desire and lust are two different things. But that's just MHO.)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by leif

I also think the statistics from various countries,

70% of people agree that 90% of statistics are made up on the spot

plus just everyday experience, indicate that homosexuality often brings more lust and promiscuity than heterosexuality

well, certainly not my everyday experience,

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(just a quick side note - IMO, any lust is bad, even for a marital partner, because IMO, lust means a desire to get sexual pleasure at the expense of another person, where love is mutual. IMO, desire and lust are two different things. But that's just MHO.)

Definitions . I've always defined it just as sexual desire. I'll have to check in a dictionary when I get home .

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I wasn't doing so because of outside pressure but because of a Bible verse I read.

Technically, wouldn't that Bible verse count as 'outside pressure'? And wouldn't your desire to change based on that verse have been influenced by the parts of your culture that had conditioned you to take everything in the Bible as truth?

Outside pressure can often be so subtle that we mistake it for an innate desire.

My question about those who switch from being homosexual to heterosexual:

Are they really switching from one extreme to the other or is it possible that they were Bisexual all along and simply didn't have the right partner?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

Technically, wouldn't that Bible verse count as 'outside pressure'?

It was an outside pressure, but a gentle rather than ruthless one. I'm also acquainted with fencing (the swordsmanship kind) because of outside pressure. The hand that guided me to fencing (my mother's) was gentle rather than harsh, and I love fencing. That it's outside pressure is kind of meaningless; Nurvi was talking about severe painful pressure though, and the Bible wasn't that. If she hits gentle outside pressure as well in her tirade, I don't know what she's complaining about.

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

And wouldn't your desire to change based on that verse have been influenced by the parts of your culture that had conditioned you to take everything in the Bible as truth?

No, because my conviction that the Bible is truth comes from logic and my own experience rather than from my culture.

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

Outside pressure can often be so subtle that we mistake it for an innate desire.

My innate desire was to be lustful; there's no doubt about that . The only reason I wanted to make the switch was because of the outside influence of the Bible.

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

My question about those who switch from being homosexual to heterosexual:

Are they really switching from one extreme to the other or is it possible that they were Bisexual all along and simply didn't have the right partner?

I'd have to ask some of them whether they ever have inclination for same-sex members any more. It would be interesting to know. This may be the case with some people.

[Spock]

Gee Jimmy Carter "lusted" in his heart. Bill Clinton lived his out. Times have certainly changed along with definitions.

[Nurvingiel]

Lief, gentle outside pressure wasn't included in my rant.


Rian, I see what you're going with your story. I agree with the point of your story, that you shouldn't necessarily follow all your desires, and we have a choice to follow this or not.

However, I think our sexuality, the basis of our desires, is neither right nor wrong. It's the choices we make that can be right or wrong.

Let's say I'm a lesbian, and married to my partner (a women, of course). Then one day I hire an electrician to install some wiring in our basement. My wife is at work, and the electrician (a very attractive woman) and I are alone in the house.

It would be wrong of me to proposition her because I'm married, and I'd be cheating on my wife and causing her a great deal of hurt. It's not wrong of me to have this desire for the electrician, or to be a lesbian.