Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Spock]

Your guidelines are frightening.

[The last sane person]

I agree with #3 one hundred percent!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

I am aware that implementation of an ethically correct system in such intricated problems is very difficult. And I have not given to the implementation sufficient thought yet. Difficulty in the implementation are not to be considered enough to put aside my points though.
Anyway, here is a first shot:
1. all involved minors should be given a state paid lawyers and a state paid psychologist who works independently of the family of origin
2. there should be no presumption of rape if the age difference is less than 3 years
3. there should always be presumption of rape if the allegations involve a parent and a child

good, twfm

[inked]

Of interest, perhaps:


Excerpt:
One of the Seattle area's most prominent clerics, the Very Rev. Robert Taylor, dean of St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral, is among five finalists for the position of bishop of the Diocese of California.

If elected, Taylor would become the second openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church and the worldwide Anglican Communion to which it belongs.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...taylor21m.html

and,

whatever is happening with Gene, the first openly gay bishop?

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=ht...DMQ26ogQ278bgJ)Q5B

[Spock]

So when we kids used to call Episcopals "straight laced" we were only referring to the type of accessories they like.

ok. don't blow a gasket. HUMOR.

[inked]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

I don't think I want to know the current answer. But since I am Episcopal and everyone thinks I'm REALLY conservative, I suppose the straitjacket could fit. On the other hand, it doesn't fit the national church.

And, I'm not sure it shouldn't be straight-laced, straight-"laised", or in lacy-straights.

[The last sane person]

Lacy-Straights.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

whatever is happening with Gene, the first openly gay bishop?

I believe he has checked himself into alcohol counselling.

[katya]

Wow, reading through this thread I realize that there were a lot more mooters that were not heterosexual than I realized. Maybe those of you who are bi could answer me a question: What effect, if any, do you think it has on your relationship with your platonic friends of the same sex? I only ask because I have plenty of platonic male friends, but it seems like there`s always some sort of potential energy there. Do you think of those friends different from opposite gender friends?

From my point of view, pretty much heterosexual, I have an exchange student friend here who is bi. Most of the time we just act the exact same as before she told me, but sometimes I wonder exactly what it`s like from her standpoint. We went in the hot spring bath thing together once too- I like the hotspring and all but I did feel a little odd (as you don`t wear clothes in the onsen). I know if I was in an onsen with a boy it would be a lot different for me, regardless of his orientation.

Do you kinda see what I`m trying to say here? Sorry if I`m being vague.

[The Gaffer]

Katya, that's one of the most sensible and interesting posts on this thread ever.

As a straight person with lots of gay friends, I think the experience is different to Platonic female friends in important ways.

I can remember, long ago (late teens, early 20s) going through a phase of being a bit annoyed because it seemed that plenty of gay men fancied me but the women I fancied didn't (if that makes sense). I now put that down to me being a clueless idiot when it comes to reading the signs in these situations (I think it took me till my 30s before I could tell when women fancied me). Gay men tend to be a bit more open about these things I guess.

My best friend in the world (Best Man at both weddings) is bent as a nine pound note. He came out after we'd been best pals for about 4 years, so it came as something of a surprise. He was at pains to explain that he didn't fancy me! (I wasn't offended!!) I guess the moral of the story is to be honest and open about it and not to be afraid to discuss it.

From my het perspective, it is different from a Platonic female friend, in that you generally wouldn't get naked with them (e.g. in the changing rooms) as you would with gay friends. I have also known plenty of examples of the "fag hag" phenomenon, basically women wanting a cuddle with a lovely bloke who isn't going to try to shag them. That's a rather touching sort of relationship I think; also different from Platonic friends.

I would put that down to the nature of male sexuality, which tends, on average, to be more indiscriminate than females'. That is, even though a woman might be my Platonic friend, I may well get a pinger if we got in the hot tub together.

[inked]

When personal is not private:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...22/ixhome.html

and

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...AGOCHCDIF1.DTL

edit: came across this "non-agenda" diatribe which spectacularly employs inversion of history and reality to make GLBT the only issue in the world :

http://frjakestopstheworld.blogspot....-backbone.html

It is the "pro" side to which I am "con", but what do 'Mooters think?

[inked]

Russia and gays:

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article345947.ece

Britain and gays (you can always count on the barristers, can't you?):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...047390,00.html

[Rían]

Here's an interesting link: http://www.family.org/cforum/news/a0039610.cfm

I've always found it very interesting, and very disturbing, that people who are not satisfied with their homosexual lifestyle and wish to change are attacked for it. As one ex-gay said, he has had a LOT more intolerance directed towards him after he decided he wanted to be heterosexual than when he was homosexual. This article describes a bit about that. Food for thought...


Interesting question, katya! I know that I would act a little differently towards a friend that was bi, only because I wouldn't want to take any chance of "leading them on" because that would only lead to their disappointment, since I wouldn't want a homosexual relationship.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

While I don't believe anyone should be attacked for their choices (so long as their choices aren't deliberately harmful to other people) I do find it disturbing that such choices are being publicized as 'a message of hope to people who are struggling' as if homosexuality were a disease to be fought against in the same way people fight cancer. I think such a viewpoint is damaging both ways.

As for Katya's question:

I don't find that being bi makes any difference in the way I act towards my friends. Granted, my personal definition of bi is probably a little skewed. To me it just means that if I care about a person enough to be in a more intimate relationship with them, then it doesn't matter what gender they are.

I think it depends on the type of friendship. I've always been equally affectionate to all my friends, regardless of gender or orientation. I consider things like hugging when greeting or saying goodbye, dancing together, walking with arms linked or around shoulders, squeezing together to fit on couches or chairs to be normal for platonic friendships.

Other people might consider those behaviors to be only appropriate for intimate relationships.
For me the things that differentiate between platonic and intimate are verbal flirtation, amount of physical contact when given room to spread out, presence/lack of kissing and amount of time spent alone together.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

While I don't believe anyone should be attacked for their choices (so long as their choices aren't deliberately harmful to other people) I do find it disturbing that such choices are being publicized as 'a message of hope to people who are struggling' as if homosexuality were a disease to be fought against in the same way people fight cancer.

I see what you're saying, but I think you're perceiving it wrong - it's for those who are struggling against their OWN unwanted homosexuality - it's their PERSONAL choice - they WANT to change. It's NOT about trying to force heterosexuality on everyone - it's helping those people who are finding they are NOT happy with homosexuality and WANT to change. It's giving them resources and help, and letting them know that there are others out there like them. Exactly like when a person embraces homosexuality - other homosexuals encourage them and let them know there are others like them.

This conference is for people who have had homosexual relationships and have come to a PERSONAL decision that it's not for them, and want help dealing with the change to a heterosexuality, and it's a huge help to know others like them.

A homosexual support group could have the EXACT same advertisement - "a message of hope to people who are struggling".

[Nurvingiel]

I don't think it would help to attack a gay person who wants to be straight. I think it's odd, but my opinion doesn't matter to this hypothetical person's life. However, I think people who encourage this type of self-hating behaviour are being extremely cruel, and should be directing the person to counselling, not telling them this is the only way to avoid eternal damnation.

I really like you RÃ*an, so I think I'll not read your entire post.


From Inked's first article:

The move will delight liberals but dismay the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, who has backed calls for a moratorium on the election of gay bishops.

*headdesk* "Moratorium" seems like a funny word in this context. "We demand a moratorium on the seal hunt... and electing gay bishops!" So heterosexuality is necessary to be a good bishop now?

Organised religion sometimes...

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I see what you're saying, but I think you're perceiving it wrong - it's for those who are struggling against their OWN unwanted homosexuality - it's their PERSONAL choice - they WANT to change. It's NOT about trying to force heterosexuality on everyone - it's helping those people who are finding they are NOT happy with homosexuality and WANT to change. It's giving them resources and help, and letting them know that there are others out there like them. Exactly like when a person embraces homosexuality - other homosexuals encourage them and let them know there are others like them.

This conference is for people who have had homosexual relationships and have come to a PERSONAL decision that it's not for them, and want help dealing with the change to a heterosexuality, and it's a huge help to know others like them.

A homosexual support group could have the EXACT same advertisement - "a message of hope to people who are struggling".

Maybe so... but billboards? Really? Seems a little over the top for a well intentioned counseling group.

[The last sane person]

That is why I never ascribe to it! Hah! Anyways, my Bi-ness is a little skewed as well. I dont look at other females the same way I look at...er...my partner(right word?) And I am rather...well, uninterested in EITHER sex in a more physical way. Its just that this one person happens to er...um, put it this way, I am interested in her. Oh boy I am butchering this....

Well, my platonic friendships are just that. Platonic. Regardless of gender. and no, they don't have that sort of action potential that you are describing Katya. Though I know what it is from experience with my er...partner (I really have to find a better english word for this). Because at first, with her, it was platonic, then I just noticed that feeling that you very well described.

So yeah...thats me.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Yeah... I have to agree with Sane's description. My relationship with my partner developed very slowly, when we first met we actually didn't like each other at all. Then overtime we started talking, then hanging out, and as we became closer as friends we started having more physical contact (with completely innocent conotations) and then just recently it became flirting and a more deeply intimate partnership (there really does need to be a better word).

The point is that the relationship is equal parts mental and physical attraction.

Personally, I look at anybody and everybody whom I find attractive, not out of any sort of lust, but because they're nice to look at. (And because I like to draw.)

[The last sane person]

Same here. And my partner really had to get used to me. She is a pacifist mostly, and I am raised to be very rough and tumble, so even my affection is kinda rough, (this is innocent you dirty people!) Boy, did she have to get used to that. And I think I have eroded away a some of that passivness, and likewise she has taken away my roughness.

I had to get used to her RANDOMNESS! my god, did she (and she still does) pull the most random things out her butt... I love her for it though. One of those funny things that grows on you....