Isildur's Curse

[Elemmírë]

How Isildur was able to curse the Kings of the Mountains in death so that they could not rest until their oath was fulfilled? In "of Beren and Luthien" in the Silm, it is written that "Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world..."

So how could Isildur?

[Valandil]

Just tossing out a guess... the Valar did not have the authority over the Children of Eru, for one. Also - I've wondered if the Stone of Erech had some special properties... I've even suggested once that it perhaps could have come from the Meneltarma.

In a broader sense though... it was a convenient story device for Tolkien to use. I don't think he was as concerned about ironing out all the 'rules' as he was with telling a good story.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The oath (no doubt a fearful one of great cosequence) appears to have had more power over their spirits when separated from their bodies than when their spirits were bound to base elemets of their bodies. I would guess that The curse was really more invoking the power of the oath than a seperate socerous action.

[Blackheart]

Yes, they were oathbreakers. It wasn't so much that Isildur cursed them, they cursed themselves.

Isildur or his heir had the power to release them, and thus the power to command them.

Kings of the Dunadain are pretty potent fellows, but the real power is the oath.

Just look what an oath did to the Noldor if you doubt it...

[Wayfarer]

"Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world..."

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

It is quite likely that Isildur would have required any oath be sworn before Eru, and that Eru held them to that oath by keeping them in Middle Earth until Isildur or his Heir declared that the oath was fulfilled.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

Whoa...! I've never heard that one before! High Priest? What did I miss this time?

All the same, why would he have the power while a Vala would not?

[The Gaffer]

Lefty and BLackheart have proposed a good answer to that, I think. It would also tie in with the many instances in LOTR (and the Hobbit) where the inhabitants of ME might suffer consequences of breaking promises (e.g. the riddling game!)

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Whoa...! I've never heard that one before! High Priest? What did I miss this time?

All the same, why would he have the power while a Vala would not?

I too wondered about that. I apperentely have missed something.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Whoa...! I've never heard that one before! High Priest? What did I miss this time?

All the same, why would he have the power while a Vala would not?

ECHO echoECHO echoECHO echoECHO echo

I dont really understand either!!
never thought of numenorean king as high priest of Eru
must re-read UT/appendices

[Valandil]

No 'High Priest' thing is stated, that I know of, but that notion could easily be inferred (and I agree with it) from 'A Description of Numenor' in UT. Particularly the part about the three days when the King went up on the Meneltarma - basically to lead his people in silent worship... and an eagle of Manwe always came to meet them there. The days corresponded with the two equinoxes and the summer solstice (I forget the exact names, but they all start with 'Eru...').

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

so, purely in speculation, would this High Priest thing be transmuted on to Aragorn? making him a form of Priest/King?

EDIT: i meant priest/king, not pope/king

[Valandil]

Let's say 'Priest/King' since 'Pope' is specific to Roman Catholic Christianity.

Yes - I think so.

Let me put it this way. If some Numenoreans had gone and landed at Aman while Tar-Palantir was King - and he stayed behind on Numenor, as I think he would have done - I don't think that Numenor would have been destroyed. However, when King Ar-Pharazon actually led the assault (and many kings before him, going way back, EXCEPT for Tar-Palantir, had been envious of the Eldar and distrustful of the Valar - basically 'in rebellion' in their hearts), the entire island was doomed.

A priest is one who stands between Man and God. He intercedes, or intervenes. He represents each party to the other.

I think many ancient cultures viewed their kings in this way though. Many developed sort of a 'divine' aspect of royalty in their thinking.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

like the Imperial Cult of ancient Rome, then?
in fact I tend to think of the romans along the same lines as Gondor anyway!!

[Valandil]

Yes - and the Egytians with their Pharoahs - and many others besides, I think. (EDIT: and some see more parallels with Egypt than with Rome - I think there are also some with ancient Israel - both for 3rd Age Dunedain kingdoms - and for 2nd Age Numenor)

Even if we do look at the (possible) Christian symbolism, Jesus Christ is viewed as having the three offices of prophet, priest and king. Among the Hebrews of the Old Testament, we do NOT see this combination of offices (no 'Priest/Kings'). Those offices are kept entirely separate, unlike other cultures. Saul, while king, is chastised severely for trying to fill a priestly role (so one might think that other kings of that day were doing so).

[Elemmírë]

I still hold with what I said before. Even if he is a priest-king, I don't see why Isildur would have more power in these matters than the Vala who deals with death and souls and whatnot!

[me9996]

It's tolkens world... I gess it's the ring...

[Elemmírë]

Can't be the Ring.

The Ring is no more powerful than Sauron.

I don't think Isildur even had it then, but even if he did, Sauron's powers don't match Mandos's.

[Wayfarer]

I still hold with what I said before. Even if he is a priest-king, I don't see why Isildur would have more power in these matters than the Vala who deals with death and souls and whatnot!

The question is, why does he need to have power for that to happen?

He brought the Kings of the Mountains and their people to the stone of erech, and had them swear an oath to help him fight Sauron. We don't know the words of that oath, but it could have easily been 'May The One deny our spirits rest until this oath is fulfilled' or something dramatic like that. In any case, it doesn't have to be complicated - you don't need to try and puzzle out how Isildur bound them to this world, because he doesn't need to - they bound themselves, or at the very least Eru (the one being who certainly has that power) bound them at their own request.

In any case, look at Maedhros and Maglor - they swore an oath before Eru, and even when they wanted to break it they couldn't. The oath-swearing was that serious a matter. (Although, come to think of it, the should have grabbed a mortal, say 'Yo, plead our case before Eru!' and then killed him. )

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

you don't need to try and puzzle out how Isildur bound them to this world, because he doesn't need to - they bound themselves, or at the very least Eru (the one being who certainly has that power) bound them at their own request.

I've come to a similar conclusion myself. Isildur himself did not have the power to bind them... but one cannot forget the power of Oaths.

An interesting corrolary is also in the story of Beren and Lúthien, where at Lúthien's request, Beren manages to remain in Mandos. Although I have read that the fëar of Men have no real power after death to withstand the call of Mandos, occurences like this must be taken into account.

A second thought: Do you think it could possibly be psychology?

I've argued this about Morgoth's curse of Túrin, and I'd apply it here too: Can a curse give power unless the Cursed allows it? I think at some level, those cursed by Isildur believed themselves cursed. They say to Aragorn that they have come to fulfill their oath and by doing so earn peace. Like you said, I believe that they somehow managed to bind themselves to the world.

I don't see why Eru would bind them, though surely he has the power. In all, he seems rather inactive , though granted his role could be enormous, and simply unnoticed...

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

In any case, look at Maedhros and Maglor - they swore an oath before Eru, and even when they wanted to break it they couldn't. The oath-swearing was that serious a matter. (Although, come to think of it, the should have grabbed a mortal, say 'Yo, plead our case before Eru!' and then killed him. )

You really think that would have worked?

The poor doomed fools.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

Now how are you interpreting the fact that office of high priest of the NUMENOREANS (not the high priest of ARDA) , which was held by the kings until it was forfieted in the downfall, was passed on into exile after the loss of Meneltarma?

And even if THAT were so, how are you then deriving the idea that the high priest would have the power to stop a soul from leaving Arda?

If anyone has a claim to being the high priest of Eru on Arda, it would be Manwe. And he states quite plainly that he's not empowered to do that...