Chapter 19: Of Beren and Lúthien

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Maedhros

It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien.

In marriage,

Melian:Thingol :: Lúthien:Beren :: Arwen:Aragorn

Melian is far above Thingol; Lúthien is far above Beren, as Thingol observed and objected; Arwen is far above Aragorn, as Elrond observed, and though Elrond was wise enough not to object, he set very lofty goals for Aragorn, which his foster-son met in full.

In wisdom and advice,

Melian:Thingol :: Galadriel:Celeborn

Celeborn indeed filled the role of Thingol in many ways, and Galadriel filled that of Melian, even emulated her in setting some bound or “girdle” upon Lórien. But it was in her gentle rebuke of Celeborn when he decried Gimli’s entry into Lórien that Galadriel most resembled Melian, her mentor in Middle-earth; and unlike Thingol, Celeborn heeded Galadriel: perhaps he really was Celeborn “the Wise”.

Tolkien is sometimes accused of being a misogynist. Not so: it’s the men who always marry up, wedding women stronger, wiser, older, and richer than they.

In retrospect, Melian might have been searching or waiting for Thingol when they met. She bore him a daughter, Lúthien, and so the race of the Maiar was mingled with that of the Eldar. But it did not remain with the Eldar: Lúthien married Beren, and the lineage of the Maiar was among Mortals only: for there is no doubt Dior EluchÃ*l Lúthien’s son was mortal, or that his two sons lost in the Second Kinslaying were mortal: Mandos says as much in the Valar’s debate of what was to become of Eärendil and Elwing. Only if one of Elrond’s sons followed his father into the Uttermost West would any of that lineage remain among Elves except for Elrond and his parents.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I wondered at the absence of Melian from most of the tale. You'd think with her forsight and skill in song (i.o.w. magic) she'd at least play a more prominent role, at least as giver of advice.

She knew one would come, driven by a stronger force than hers (fate in this case) and break through her Girdle. But did she know how it would decide the fate of her daughter?

I think it was in her mind to meet and mate with one of the Eldar. That must have come from the Music. No other Maia does this. (To make that point is why I reached back to the beginning of this thread.) She did not know the outcome of her actions, giving birth to Lúthien: The outcome of Lúthien’s actions was a matter of her Free Will, not her mother’s, and Melian was not privy to it beforehand.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

She knew it could endanger Thingol and she warned him of that but she doesn't counsel him on which action to take, and Thingol doesn't seek her counsel either. Because what does the dolt do? he gets himself entangled with the silmarils and the Oath. Tssk.

Thingol is having Elvish outrage. He wants to kill Beren, and thinks he has. As Maedhros pointed out, though, Beren’s relationship to Lúthien parallels Thingol’s relationship to Melian. (And when Thingol dies, Melian departs. When Aragorn dies, Arwen departs and dies. When Beren dies, Lúthien chooses to die, too.)

Thingol’s pride is driving his ill-advised course of action. I say “ill-advised,” because Melian objects to it, but not in front of Beren. It seems to have been an aside overheard in the court, and Lúthien seems to have witnessed it:

O King, you have devised cunning counsel. But if my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.

That mightier realm is that of the Noldor, whose fate is entwined with that of the Silmarils.

I take that as Melian’s rebuking Thingol, and none too gently: Galadriel was kinder to Celeborn in Lórien. Thingol’s response was haughty, even towards his wife, and their daughter heard it and understood it.

No one asks, “How old is Lúthien?” Pretty old! Older probably than Arwen when she married Aragorn, and she was nearly 3000 years old. Lúthien understood in all their layers of meaning her mother’s rebuke of her father, and her father’s dismissive reply. She ain’t some flighty young teenage chick running on overstocked hormones and adrenaline. Her decision to follow Beren is indeed based upon deep love and affection, but she arrived at it in cold deliberation and logic as much as in warmest emotion.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

She also doesn't tell Thingol off when he goes one further and locks up their daughter! At least, as far as we know of. … maybe sung very far away from Doriath and only late at night when too many drinks had been consumed, which in lurid detail tells of the dressing-down proud Thingol receives of his Maia-wife. One can only hope.

The rebuke Melian has already delivered can be much stronger if you consider it sarcasm. It certainly has those overtones: the voice of the speaker and her inflections would control whether it was gentle or sarcastic, and even if delivered gently, the underlying sarcasm would eventually leave Thingol with bitter taste when pondered it.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

In any case Thingol seems to have started his fall from grace here. Here he makes light of Melian's warning of involving himself with the silmarils and then in the later chapter, he outright ignores her counsel to return the silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor. Was it just the influence of the silmaril or did Thingol in some part blame Melian for what happened to Lúthien and no longer heeds her counsel as he did before?

He is definitely ignoring his wife, who is much wiser (and far older!) than he.

I think Thingol is suffering from pride and an inflated opinion of himself. It eventually gets him killed by the Dwarves of Nogrod in his own fortress, which they helped him build; and ignoring Melian’s counsel to return the Silmaril leads to the ruin of both Doriath and the mixed company of Eldar and Edain at the Mouths of Sirion; but it also permits Eärendil’s embassy to Valinor.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But also to Lúthien, Melian does not offer advice at any point. … Nor does Melian seem inclined to hinder her daughter in her quest and movements either.

I think she’s not supposed to advise Lúthien. This seems to me some plan of Eru’s, and Melian is the agent through whom it is achieved.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

when Lúthien and Beren return from the dead, Melian is sorrowful when she looks at Lúthien and sees the full scope of her doom.

Even if Melian meets Lúthien again at the end of Arda, that’s going to be a very long time. And you might remember that the Elves knew nothing of what happened to them after Arda.

By the way, Melian doesn’t wait in Doriath to meet her grandson, Dior. She leaves before he arrives. Of all the descendants of Melian and Lúthien on Elrond’s side, the only ones to know their grandparents are Elrond’s children, who knew Galadriel and Celeborn well. Dior never meets Melian. Elwing never meets Lúthien. Elrond never meets Dior. Elrond’s children never meet Elwing. Arwen’s children never meet Elrond.