The Avari

I really wasn't looking too hard but I couldn't find what happened to the Avari after splitting off. Anybody find anything, let me know.


Stinky

You won't find what you're looking for in THE SILMARILLION. Unfortunately, although there IS information about the Avari in other books, Tolkien's conception of them changed through the years, and the complete story of the Avari was never really revealed in his writings.

Like true history, Tolkien's pseudo-history leaves you guessing at answers, but the guessing is sometimes fun.

The Avari, you may recall, were derived from those members of the Second and Third clans who chose not to answer the summons of the Valar. The social structures of these two clans were very different.

The Elves originally comprised three clans: the Minyar (firsts), Tatyar (seconds), and Nelyar (thirds) [Source: THE WAR OF THE JEWELS, "Quendi and Eldar"]. The Minyar all chose to go to Aman and they were subsequently known as the Vanyar. Very few of them ever left Aman, except to fight in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age.

The Tatyar were about evenly divided, and those who went to Aman became the Noldor. The Noldor, as you know from THE SILMARILLION, became sub-divided into several different peoples. Although Tolkien doesn't say so specifically, it has been argued on the basis of linguistic evidence that the Tatyarin Avari became divided, also, into at least five new clans (or tribes -- their numbers most likely increased, as did the Noldor's).

These five clans were called the Kindi, Cuind, Hwenti, Windan, and Kinn-lai. These names all mean basically the same thing as "quendi", but designated only the tribes themselves.

Most of the Nelyar answered the summons of the Valar, and these became the Teleri, from whom later came the Nandor, the Sindar, and the Falmari (the Teleri of Aman). The Sindar, of course, were sub-divided into two groups: the Eglath (the friends and kinsfolk of Elwe who remained to look for him) and the Falathrim, the Elves who settled under Cirdan along the coast of Beleriand in the region known as the Falas.

Unlike the Teleri, however, the Nelyarin Avari don't seem to have become divided into multiple groups. The Nelyar actually had a very strong sense of community, and during the debate when it became clear that nearly half the Nelyar were going to Aman, many others who wanted to stay in Middle-earth changed their minds and joined the Teleri so they could remain close to their friends and kinsfolk. Ironically, the Teleri were nonetheless divided anyway.

The Nandor broke off from the line of march on the Great Journey when they reached the river Anduin. Turning south, some of them settled in the forests on the eastern side of the river, but many others moved down to the lands opposite Calenardhon and into Ithilien. These Nandor split up into many (unnamed) groups and most (if not all) crossed Anduin either at the Undeeps or at Cair Andros.

The Nandor spread through Calenardhon and the lands south of the Ered Nimrais, and those in Calenardhon eventually turned north and spread north toward Eriador.

Long after the Vanyar, Noldor, and Falmari reached Aman the Avari began to move west. Tolkien never says why, but I suspect that when Morgoth's creatures began to increase in population again they started out in the distant east and probably drove the Elves westward before them.

The Nelyarin Avari now called themselves Penni, and these Elves settled in the forests on either side of Anduin in the upper Vales of Anduin. There they mingled with the Nandor who had stayed in those lands and eventually the two groups merged to become the Silvan Elves of Greenwood the Great and Lothlorien (and possibly other lands).

The five tribes of the Tatyarin Avari apparently crossed Anduin and made their ways into Calenardhon and Eriador. There may, in fact, have been more groups of Tatyar whom Tolkien didn't name. At least one of the Tatyarin groups joined the Nandor who followed Denethor to Beleriand. These appear to be the first Avari to actually reach Beleriand, but there are indications in the index to THE SILMARILLION that other groups of Avari eventually entered Beleriand as well. These (according to "Quendi and Eldar") were all Tatyarin Avari. Tolkien doesn't say if they were from the five named groups.

In Beleriand Denethor's people lived peacefully in Ossiriand, but when Thingol called upon Denethor to help fight Morgoth's eastern army, Denethor and all his relatives were killed in the battle. Many (perhaps most) of Denethor's remaining people then moved north to Doriath, and among these were at least some of the Tatyarin Avari who had joined the Nandor.

The Nandor/Avari who settled in Doriath were called the Guest-Elves, and they lived for the most part in the southeastern part of Doriath in a region called Arthorien (between the rivers Aros and Celon). Of these elves, the only two ever named were Ithilbor and his son Saeros, but Tolkien doesn't say (I think) whether they were of purely Nandorin origin, Avarin, or mixed. Tolkien did say that the Avari who settled in Doriath didn't adjust well to life among the Sindar.

At the end of the First Age, therefore, you can probably place the Tatyarin Avari in either Eriador or Beleriand. I doubt if many would have been further east. Eriador was not entirely free of Morgoth's servants, but it did lie between two mountain ranges controlled by Dwarves who were not friendly to Morgoth, and beyond these mountain ranges lay an Eldarin civilization (in Beleriand) and a growing population of Silvan Elves. And Morgoth's attention was mostly focused on Beleriand.

Many Men settled in Eriador during the First Age, including Edainic peoples (most of whom seem to have remained there) and Easterlings related to the Folk of Bor (the Easterlings who stayed faithful to Maedhros and the Feanorians in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad). These Men probably did not have much to do with the Elves.

Some of the Sindar (virtually all of them derived from the Eglath) fled to Eriador after the Dagor Bragollach, and these joined the Nandor who were still dwelling in Eriador at the time. I think it's doubtful they would have mingled with the Tatyar.

After the War of Wrath Eonwe travelled through Middle-earth and he reissued the summons to all the Elves to pass over Sea to Aman. Tolkien doesn't say if any of the Avari responded to the summons this time, but I think some of them must have. We don't know what happened to the Green-elves of Ossiriand or the Guest-elves. The Sindarin adventurers who established new realms east and south of Lindon in the Second Age all appear to have been Doriathin Elves (Eglath).

To give an idea of what proportions of the Elven populations were Vanyar, etc., Tolkien established a numbering scheme. This scheme was said to be based on the fact that there were originally 144 Elves who awakened at Cuivienen (72 couples). These Elves were divided into the various clans as follows:

Minyar (Vanyar) 14
Tatyar
(Noldor) 28
(Avari) 28
Nelyar (Teleri) 46
(Falmari) 20
(Sindar) 18
(Nandor) 8
(Avari) 28

The division of the Sindar and Nandor is drawn from memory. Someone told me the Nandor comprised about 8, but I don't recall the exact number and cannot remember what the source is. Otherwise, the breakdown is provided in "Quendi and Eldar".

There are no divisions (in terms of proportions as given above) for the Avari, but I am guessing that all the Nelyarin Avari became the Penni. The Tatyarin Avari therefore probably became divided into groups that would have been assigned proportions of 5 or 6. Any one of these groups, therefore, would have been nearly equal in number to all the Nandor combined, so it's unlikely those Tatyar who joined Denethor's people were one of these whole tribes. Rather, they may have been individuals or small families who joined Nandorin communities (for whatever reason).

If we go way out on a limb, we can argue there must have been only a total of 72 Elven "houses" (in the sense of families tracing their descent from a single male ancestor). The "three clans" were clans of a superfamilial communal structure.

However, the Noldor seem to have become sub-divided into many more "houses" or families. Tolkien doesn't say why, or what happened to the earlier generations. However, the Finweans (the royal houses descended from Finwe, first King of the Noldor) were divided into several houses (the houses of Feanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin -- named for Finwe's three sons) and yet were still regarded to be "Finweans", so I suppose the division of houses was not definitely articulated, but allowed for overlap.

There have been many attempts to estimate the sizes of the Elven populations, and none of them can claim any authority. Tolkien wrote (in MORGOTH'S RING) that in the early generations an Elven couple (among the Eldar) would average about four children. He also stated that an Elf child would grow to maturity in anywhere from 50 to 100 years of the Sun. And he said that an Elf couple would normally space out their children so as to allow at least several years for the parents to spend with each child in its most formative years.

The only extended genealogical examples we have for Elven families come from the royal houses, which were probably atypical in several respects (Feanor, for example, is said to be the only Elf ever to have fathered seven children).

Since four is the AVERAGE, that means some Elf couples were having 5 or 6 children and some were having 2 or 3 children, but most were probably having around 3 to 5 children. Assuming Elf children were normally born about 50 years apart, an Elf couple would beget its offspring over a period of from 100 to 200 years (in the case of 100 years, the third child would grow to maturity in another 50-100 years).

Tolkien mentioned that the Elves tended to marry while still quite young, so for the sake of estimating populations one can begin with the following assumptions:

1) Elves married and began having children around age 50 (years of the Sun).

2) Each couple would have four children spaced out over 150 years. The fourth child would beget its first offspring when the parents were about 200 years old. The first child would beget its first offspring when the parents were about 100 years old. This assumption favors Elves maturing around age 50.

3) The Elves awoke at Cuivienen in Year of the Trees 1050. (A year of the Trees was equivalent to roughly 9.58 years of the Sun.)

4) The Eldar left Cuivienen in Year of the Trees 1105. (This allows for the equivalent of 526.9 years of the Sun in which the Elves could have babies before the sundering of the Eldar from the Avari.)

So, there you have much of what I know about the Avari, and the basic information I and others have used to try and estimate Elvish populations in the past. Hope you find that satisfying.

Michael: what is the source for the Tatyarin Avari to comprise five of those six given Avarin tribes? Is this a 'linguistic' theory from David Salo et al?

David Salo and I are not on speaking terms. My source is a former writer for the MERP series who had at the time ICE lost the Middle-earth license last year been working (with two other writers) on a book-length project which would have produced what I regard as a revolutionary collection of modules about Elvish society and history in Middle-earth.

I should add that these MERP writers were conducting top-knotch research into Tolkien. They weren't just making up this stuff off the top of their heads or trying to extend the earlier MERP errors. They would have been confined to certain MERP conventions which we now know to be wrong, but as much as possible the last group of module writers were trying to bring the game closer to Tolkien.

I hold out the hope that one day this material be published, perhaps through OTHER HANDS ( otherhands.com/ ), a well-respected journal devoted to Midlde-earth role-playing and Tolkien research. It would be a shame for it to just disappear into the wastes of what-might-have-been.

There was only ever one serious point of contention between me and these writers, and that is that they favored a feudal model for Elvish society, but it was not a medieval European fuedality. They went back to the core use and meaning of feudalism, which is of a personal contract between two individuals (for something other than money). The feudalism was well-thought out and grounded in some very solid research and extrapolation. As I came to understand their cultural system better I developed a healthy respect for their model, even though it is not necessarily one I myself would have contrived. But it does address some of the questions that occasionally arise about how the Elves built their societies.

[Dúnedain]

Could Michael Martinez rule anymore? Damn, I just learned more about the Elves in the few minutes I spent reading this thread than I have in all of Tolkiens works, lol

[Twista]

Theres alot of guests popping up in here lol.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Could Michael Martinez rule anymore? Damn, I just learned more about the Elves in the few minutes I spent reading this thread than I have in all of Tolkiens works, lol

Yeah, no kidding! Martinez is great; I have learned v. much from reading his posts!

[Lefty Scaevola]

Most Avari likely lived as silvan elves in whatever part of ME they could survive unmolested, which would be mostly the areas on the LoTR map. Many fused with the Nandor that formed the original Mirkwood and Lothlorien populations, I suspect many were in the great forest of Eriador in the first half second age and were that they were serilously slaughtered during the War of Elves of Sauron. In the first age, when they likely did not have highly organized Kingdoms and armies, they likley suffered many casulaties from Morgoths forces and lieutenants while he was in captivity and before then. Many of them may have been incorporated into his and Saurons orc breeding programs, the sources for which are highly debated by JRRT (all published canon by JRRT say or suggest it was elves, but later brainstroming note of his suggest several different theories), also well as his readers.