The Emperor's Origins

[Lief Erikson]

This is not a spoiler thread. Spoilers to what the Emperor's origins are should be kept private.

Anyway, on my most recent viewing of Episode II of Star Wars, I developed a theory to the Emperor's origins that I believe will be accurate. Any theories others may have would be welcome.

My theory is that the Emperor was originally Cyphodias. Jedi Master Cyphodias supposedly died over a decade before "Attack of the Clones". He is referred to in the movie as having been a leading member of the Jedi Council. Someone claiming to be Cyphodias ordered the creation of the clone army, for the Jedi Council. Nothing more is said about Cyphodias in the movie.

Originally I thought that Cyphodias was another name for Dooku. However, this theory is rather dented now. Everyone already is well acquainted with Dooku's background. He was Yoda's apprentice, was once a Jedi, and it seems unlikely that Yoda would or could have completed the entirety of his training after Cyphodias' disappearance. It's possible, but rather unlikely, to me.

If the Emperor was Cyphodias, that would give an origin for the Emperor and an explanation for his Force powers. It's clear that they'll be revealing more about this mystery of Cyphodias in Episode III, simply because they left his involvement as such a question mark in Episode II.

So that's my theory. There's not a lot of evidence to support it, but I really suspect it's accurate. My brother asked me how Yoda could have missed recognizing him. Perhaps he's a changeling. There doubtless are other possible answers, though.

This has been a question I've been seriously thinking about now and then. The Emperor's origins have been a prevailing mystery in the films. If anyone has extra information from books that tell the answer, please cloak it from our vision with the shadow of the Dark Side (spoiler signs ). I look forward to any comments or other theories!

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

This is not a spoiler thread. Spoilers to what the Emperor's origins are should be kept private.

Anyway, on my most recent viewing of Episode II of Star Wars, I developed a theory to the Emperor's origins that I believe will be accurate. Any theories others may have would be welcome.

My theory is that the Emperor was originally Cyphodias. Jedi Master Cyphodias supposedly died over a decade before "Attack of the Clones". He is referred to in the movie as having been a leading member of the Jedi Council. Someone claiming to be Cyphodias ordered the creation of the clone army, for the Jedi Council. Nothing more is said about Cyphodias in the movie.

Originally I thought that Cyphodias was another name for Dooku. However, this theory is rather dented now. Everyone already is well acquainted with Dooku's background. He was Yoda's apprentice, was once a Jedi, and it seems unlikely that Yoda would or could have completed the entirety of his training after Cyphodias' disappearance. It's possible, but rather unlikely, to me.

If the Emperor was Cyphodias, that would give an origin for the Emperor and an explanation for his Force powers. It's clear that they'll be revealing more about this mystery of Cyphodias in Episode III, simply because they left his involvement as such a question mark in Episode II.

So that's my theory. There's not a lot of evidence to support it, but I really suspect it's accurate. My brother asked me how Yoda could have missed recognizing him. Perhaps he's a changeling. There doubtless are other possible answers, though.

This has been a question I've been seriously thinking about now and then. The Emperor's origins have been a prevailing mystery in the films. If anyone has extra information from books that tell the answer, please cloak it from our vision with the shadow of the Dark Side (spoiler signs ). I look forward to any comments or other theories!

You're right on:

1.Sifodias is probubly Palpatene.

2.He's not Duku!

You probubly aren't on:

1.Sifodias being a Jedi when the clone were ordered.


Just my opinoin

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by me9996

You probubly aren't on:

1.Sifodias being a Jedi when the clone were ordered.


Just my opinoin

I don't entirely understand what you mean. Siphodias had already faked his death when he placed the order at Kamino. Obviously he already had been one of the Sith for a long time.

[Bombadillo]

I don't think so. I think in ep. 2, when it's mentioned that Sipholias ordered the army after being thought dead, Obi Wan was kind of thinking "then who was posing as Sipholias and what would they want with an army?" At that point I thought, "Palpatine."

Remember in ep. 1 when those Chinese-sounding aquatic-looking dudes asked the emperor "my lord, is that... legal?" He answered suggestively "I will make it legal." Now I obviously forget who those guys were, and what they were asking about exactly, but the Emperor sure does hint that he can influence the Trade Federation, of which Palpatine is about to become chancellor, to change intergalactic law for his purposes.

And about what he hoped to do with an army:

(This is what I've pieced together with the storyline so far presented in movies.) Palpatine's been planning all along to destroy the jedi. In the next movie his clone army, the sith, and/or his sith self, revealed in imperial glory, and maybe even Boba Fett, will destroy the Jedi Council, but of course seduce Anikin first. Palpatine would acchieve his goal in politics by advancing from senator to chancellor to emperor when he changes the trade federation into the ominous Empire! Remember one part in ep. 4, in the beginning when there's that meeting on the star destroyer. The admiral walks in saying "we can use the Death Star now." Someone asks "what about the congress that would..." and he interrupts "I've just recieved word from the Emperor that there are servants in each magistrate now and the federation has been disbanded... we can keep order through fear now." I'm paraphrasing mercilessly but if you watch it you'll recognize it. It's quite a hasty conversation though, but in my theory pivotal. So he'll be all-powerful politically, but he will still leave Luke to rival his power in the universe.

And if that's the case, it would make Palpatine the most ambitious and dynamic bad guy ever created. I soooo hope he kills Jar-Jar.

EDIT: Somehow I never even wondered about the origin of his force powers. Maybe you were right and Sipholias feigned his death and ordered and army, and then made up the identity of Palpatine.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

This is not a spoiler thread. Spoilers to what the Emperor's origins are should be kept private.

Anyway, on my most recent viewing of Episode II of Star Wars, I developed a theory to the Emperor's origins that I believe will be accurate. Any theories others may have would be welcome.

My theory is that the Emperor was originally Cyphodias. Jedi Master Cyphodias supposedly died over a decade before "Attack of the Clones". He is referred to in the movie as having been a leading member of the Jedi Council. Someone claiming to be Cyphodias ordered the creation of the clone army, for the Jedi Council. Nothing more is said about Cyphodias in the movie.

Originally I thought that Cyphodias was another name for Dooku. However, this theory is rather dented now. Everyone already is well acquainted with Dooku's background. He was Yoda's apprentice, was once a Jedi, and it seems unlikely that Yoda would or could have completed the entirety of his training after Cyphodias' disappearance. It's possible, but rather unlikely, to me.

If the Emperor was Cyphodias, that would give an origin for the Emperor and an explanation for his Force powers. It's clear that they'll be revealing more about this mystery of Cyphodias in Episode III, simply because they left his involvement as such a question mark in Episode II.

So that's my theory. There's not a lot of evidence to support it, but I really suspect it's accurate. My brother asked me how Yoda could have missed recognizing him. Perhaps he's a changeling. There doubtless are other possible answers, though.

This has been a question I've been seriously thinking about now and then. The Emperor's origins have been a prevailing mystery in the films. If anyone has extra information from books that tell the answer, please cloak it from our vision with the shadow of the Dark Side (spoiler signs ). I look forward to any comments or other theories!

Emperor Palpatine is NOT Sifo-Dyas! There are several obvious reason why he could never be Sifo-dyas too. Most importantly Sifo was a leading member of the Jedi order(not Jedi council). Palpatine was present durring Episode one, before Maul was even killed Palpatine assumed position as Supreme Chancellor! A Jedi can not be Chancellor! Furthermore Sifo was a jedi, so if Sidious was ever a jedi the council would know, namely Yoda. No, Sidious is not Sifo and Sidious was never a Jedi. Time wise Chancellor Palpatine became chancellor, after being a member of the senate, before the time Sifo was killed.

The most reasonable answer to who Sifo is is not official but most agree to this theory; Darth Maul was killed by Obi-wan after killing Qui-gon, Darth Sidious needed a new apprentice and saw great potential in Jedi Knight Dooku. Dooku was having political idealist differences with the Jedi and so luring him to the dark side was not hard. Sidious' last test was for Dooku to kill his very close friend Sifo-dyas. We dont know if the order was to point blank kill Sifo or a plot for Dooku to rally Sifo to their cause. Anywho, after Sifo was killed Dooku went to Kamino and used his former friends name to contract the clones. After that he removed the archive info on Kamino, left the Jedi order and joined with the Sepreatist forces. While seemingly in league with the sepratists Darth Tyranus(Dooku) contracted Jango Fett to be the prototype for the clones.

Some would ask why would Dooku use the name Sifo-dyas, or how do you know Sifo wasnt the one who truely contracted the Clones. The answer is quite simple; Palpatine/Sidious was very very cunning! Sidious made Dooku use the name of a Jedi that could not be queastioned on the actions taken, Sifo was killed just before the contract was made so no one would be able to ask him if he did! Dooku's name was not used because they could track the contract down to Dooku and the Sepratists, which would lead to Sidious. By using the name Sifo-dyas after he had been killed Sidious ensured that the Jedi would not be able to denounce the Clone army... because "they" were the ones who contracted them!

It is unclear where Sidious comes from but we know where he didnt come from... he was not Sifo, and Dooku was not Sifo.... at least not really. The only thing we know is that Palpatine came from Naboo... if that where he origionated we do not know. I personaly doubt that Palpatine is an actual Naboosian.

Darth Sidious gaining of his force powers was through his master... Darth Plagueis! Palpatine was trained as a Sith from the begining!

Edit: Just answering a few loose arguments i read through some of the other posts... Sidious could not be a Changelim. Anakin could detect a changelim and yoda has a much stronger bond with the force. Yoda is seen sitting no more than a few feet from Sidious and senses nothing!!! Sidious is not a changelim!

We will see how Palpatines face changes in Ep. III; Mace Windu will deflect force lighting in Palpatines face!

Also Bombadillo wrote

"but the Emperor sure does hint that he can influence the Trade Federation, of which Palpatine is about to become chancellor, to change intergalactic law for his purposes."

I just wanted to point out that it is the Intergalactic Senate that Palpatine is Chancellor of and will inecitably become Emperor of, not the Trade Federation. The T.F. is the Nemoidian race that attacked Naboo and sent the Droid army in Ep. I.

(I am typing this response in a not so clear state so if you'd like clearification or any kind of in deapth answer i can and would be glad to answer.)

[Lief Erikson]

Perhaps you are right, Halbarad. I will very happily argue with you, though .

By the way, what was the source for the spoilers you wrote?

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Emperor Palpatine is NOT Sifo-Dyas! There are several obvious reason why he could never be Sifo-dyas too. Most importantly Sifo was a leading member of the Jedi order(not Jedi council). Palpatine was present durring Episode one, before Maul was even killed Palpatine assumed position as Supreme Chancellor! A Jedi can not be Chancellor! Furthermore Sifo was a jedi, so if Sidious was ever a jedi the council would know, namely Yoda. No, Sidious is not Sifo and Sidious was never a Jedi. Time wise Chancellor Palpatine became chancellor, after being a member of the senate, before the time Sifo was killed.

Correction. In the movies, it never said when Syphodias was killed. In Episode II, Obi-Wan said in reference to whoever placed the clone order, "I was under the impression that Syphodias was killed before that!" So we know that he was supposed to be dead before the order was placed, and in the movie they said it was ten years before Attack of the Clones. So Syphodias was dead ten years before. I don't even think there's supposed to be a ten year time difference between Episodes 1 and 2, though perhaps I'm wrong on this.

Anyway, there's no indication in the movie as to when Syphodias died. They only said that he was already supposed to be dead at the time the Clone order was placed.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

The most reasonable answer to who Sifo is is not official but most agree to this theory; Darth Maul was killed by Obi-wan after killing Qui-gon, Darth Sidious needed a new apprentice and saw great potential in Jedi Knight Dooku. Dooku was having political idealist differences with the Jedi and so luring him to the dark side was not hard.

I agree with you so far.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Sidious' last test was for Dooku to kill his very close friend Sifo-dyas. We dont know if the order was to point blank kill Sifo or a plot for Dooku to rally Sifo to their cause. Anywho, after Sifo was killed Dooku went to Kamino and used his former friends name to contract the clones.

There's a bit of a technical hitch here. Is Kamino's security so bad that they'll just believe anybody when they say they're somebody without any evidence at all? Surely it would be easy to use Intergalactic Internet or something to see Syphodias' face . Could someone just show up claiming to be Yoda, and get command of the whole army?

It seems a bit implausible.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

The only thing we know is that Palpatine came from Naboo... if that where he origionated we do not know. I personaly doubt that Palpatine is an actual Naboosian.

It seems unlikely to me too.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Edit: Just answering a few loose arguments i read through some of the other posts... Sidious could not be a Changelim. Anakin could detect a changelim and yoda has a much stronger bond with the force. Yoda is seen sitting no more than a few feet from Sidious and senses nothing!!! Sidious is not a changelim!

Anakin sensed a changeling that was not a Force user at all. Palpatine has used the Force to block the entire Clone army from being sensed, "blinding", as Yoda puts it, the entire Jedi Order. We also know that Palpatine is packed with Dark Force power. In spite of this, he is capable of sitting a few feet from Yoda without being detected. He clearly is an astounding master of the Force. It seems highly illogical to me that he could hide all this, yet not hide the fact that he's a changeling.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

That would make sense.

A little sad that it's so similar to Anakin's demise, though.

I would like to know your source for that too, though.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Also Bombadillo wrote I just wanted to point out that it is the Intergalactic Senate that Palpatine is Chancellor of and will inecitably become Emperor of, not the Trade Federation. The T.F. is the Nemoidian race that attacked Naboo and sent the Droid army in Ep. I.

(I am typing this response in a not so clear state so if you'd like clearification or any kind of in deapth answer i can and would be glad to answer.)

Sorry, I didn't really understand what you said here. Could you clarify?

[Earniel]

I think I'll stay in the 'Syfo-dias is not Palpatine' camp. The info in AoTC does seem to point to only Syfo-dias' (so many different ways to write it, and I don't know which one is the right one!) name being used to place an order with the cloners. I don't think a jedi-master would fake his own death and then return as Palpatine and get away with it so easily. But I take it it was indeed Palpatine that, under the name of Syfo-dias ordered the clone army. I don' think it could be Dooku because he hired Jango under the name Lord Tyrannus, and it would have been needless for yet another name if he already pretended to be Syfo-dias. But I suppose the RoTS can shed more light into this.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

So Syphodias was dead ten years before. I don't even think there's supposed to be a ten year time difference between Episodes 1 and 2, though perhaps I'm wrong on this.

The time between TPM and AoTC is, if you ask me, rather muddled. If not so many years have passed, I wonder how Shmi's second son, Owen, could have grown so big already. If less than 10 years had passed he could have been no older than 8 or so.

There's a bit of a technical hitch here. Is Kamino's security so bad that they'll just believe anybody when they say they're somebody without any evidence at all? Surely it would be easy to use Intergalactic Internet or something to see Syphodias' face . Could someone just show up claiming to be Yoda, and get command of the whole army?

The Kaminoans do strike me as a little naive, but partially I think they just didn't really care. Kamino wasn't part of the Republic so I gather they're not really interested in what happens beyond their own world. They didn't even know Syfo-dias had been dead for the last 10 years, which implies some isolation. I'm also guessing 'Syfo-dias' paid in advance when he placed his order so I doubt the Kaminoans made a big deal about who took the clone army with them since they were already paid for. And jedi's are pretty recognizible in their brown outfits. If the Jedi-council placed an order through Syfo-dias, it isn't so strange that another jedi-master, Yoda, came to pick them up. Especially not since Obi-Wan had paid an inspecting-visit just earlier and would report to his masters that the army was ready. At least, it makes sense to me.

I also don't think Palpatine is a changeling. I'll admit I'm partially going on later novel-knowledge that Palpatine had a preference for humans in his fleet. So I would deem it unlikely for himself to have been anything else than human too. Another possible piece of proof could be that, supposing Palpatine was a changeling, he wouldn't have had to go through the cape-and-hood-routine when playing Darth Sidious, he could just have changed his face.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Quoted from Lief Erikson ~

"By the way, what was the source for the spoilers you wrote?"

Mostly from the book StarWars Revenge of the Sith, which has been released with 100% and full concent of George Lucas, which to mean says he fully agrees to damn near everything in the book. Furthermore i have read a few articles/reviews from individuals who have already seen the entire film. (before anyone claims thats not possible Director Kevin Smith has a review on his website)

Correction. In the movies, it never said when Syphodias was killed. In Episode II, Obi-Wan said in reference to whoever placed the clone order, "I was under the impression that Syphodias was killed before that!" So we know that he was supposed to be dead before the order was placed, and in the movie they said it was ten years before Attack of the Clones. So Syphodias was dead ten years before. I don't even think there's supposed to be a ten year time difference between Episodes 1 and 2, though perhaps I'm wrong on this.

Anyway, there's no indication in the movie as to when Syphodias died. They only said that he was already supposed to be dead at the time the Clone order was placed.

Yet there is still the fact that Sifo-dyas was killed. Palpatine was not killed. Palpatine was a Naboosian senetor... not a jedi at the time of 10 years before Clone Wars! Then Palpatine became Supreame Chancellor... how could Sifo-dyas a good but not great jedi become supreame chancellor and a leading member of the Jedi Order!? In the case of Sifo being Sidious he would litteraly have to be in two places at one time! Furthermore when Obi-wan says he "thought" Sifo was killed nearly ten years ago he means 10 years is more than the time of death, Sifo was killed more like 9 years and 6 months ago.(Just an example time!) Of course I have no solid proof of this untill Lucas makes a statement but it's pretty close to common sense.

There's a bit of a technical hitch here. Is Kamino's security so bad that they'll just believe anybody when they say they're somebody without any evidence at all? Surely it would be easy to use Intergalactic Internet or something to see Syphodias' face . Could someone just show up claiming to be Yoda, and get command of the whole army?

Apperantly so! Obi-wan shows up and they think he is a Jedi Master who is going to take the army then and there! The Kaminoians don't have much of a need to care who they are dealing with, like Dex says, they only care about money... and maners! Heh. Also, I believe in the time of the "Clone Contracting" Dooku was still a Jedi and so had enough proof with him to claim to be a jedi, even if it was another Jedi's name.

Anakin sensed a changeling that was not a Force user at all. Palpatine has used the Force to block the entire Clone army from being sensed, "blinding", as Yoda puts it, the entire Jedi Order. We also know that Palpatine is packed with Dark Force power. In spite of this, he is capable of sitting a few feet from Yoda without being detected. He clearly is an astounding master of the Force. It seems highly illogical to me that he could hide all this, yet not hide the fact that he's a changeling

It is very true that Sidious has used his great Mastery of the Dark Side to cloud the minds of even the greatest of Jedi but to hide that he is a Changelim is almost to much secrecy to give one character! It's kind of pointless and redundant. Palpatine is most likely human, and his face is destroyed as I have "secretly" mentioned before. Also when you see his destorted face it doesnt look like a changlim nor does his voice sound like a changlim.

Sorry, I didn't really understand what you said here. Could you clarify?

The last statement I was making was just a stupid obssesive cumpulsive thing, Bombadillo simply made a mistake, he called the Intergalactic Senate the Trade Federation. The Intergalactic Senate is the huge mushroom shaped buliding where all the senators and chancellor join to disscuss issues in the galaxy. The Trade Federation is a "guild" that is run by a race known as Nemoidians. These Nemoidians created a blockade over Naboo, invaded Naboo, and joined the Confederacy of Speratist Systems with Count Dooku. A Simple mistake that didn't need to be clarified... but i did cause I could...

Edit: Oh and yes nearly 10 years had passed between Episode I and Episode II, in EPI Anakin was a 9 year old boy, in EPII he was a 19 year old Jedi Padawan. Amidala is 14 year old Queen and in EPII she is a 24 year old Senator. Episode II and III are seperated by three years, the Clone Wars years, and Episode III to Episode IV is set almost twenty years apart. This makes Anakin around 43 at the end of Jedi.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Accidental double post, ignore or delete...!

[azalea]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The time between TPM and AoTC is, if you ask me, rather muddled. If not so many years have passed, I wonder how Shmi's second son, Owen, could have grown so big already. If less than 10 years had passed he could have been no older than 8 or so.

I think I remember that Owen Lars was the son of Shmi's new husband by a previous wife; thus Anakin and Owen are stepbrothers, not half brothers (if I'm remembering the scene in TPM correctly).

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Yet there is still the fact that Sifo-dyas was killed. Palpatine was not killed. Palpatine was a Naboosian senetor... not a jedi at the time of 10 years before Clone Wars!

Then Palpatine became Supreame Chancellor... how could Sifo-dyas a good but not great jedi become supreame chancellor and a leading member of the Jedi Order!? In the case of Sifo being Sidious he would litteraly have to be in two places at one time! Furthermore when Obi-wan says he "thought" Sifo was killed nearly ten years ago he means 10 years is more than the time of death, Sifo was killed more like 9 years and 6 months ago.(Just an example time!) Of course I have no solid proof of this untill Lucas makes a statement but it's pretty close to common sense.

Obi-Wan said that Syphodias was killed over ten years ago, not before. That means his death didn't have to be within ten years. It had to be more then ten years ago. We don't know by how much. So Syphodias may have died and then come back as Palpatine on Naboo. Syphodias also makes sense as an option because he was clearly a great Jedi. He was a leading member of the Jedi Order, which means he had a massive mastery of the Force, and a great deal of wisdom or cunning or both. This means he had time to become Palpatine, and he had the background. I don't see any other candidate presented in any of the other movies (though I know your commonly accepted theory doesn't rely on such a candidate either).

Anyway, I'll be seeing the movie in a very few days . It's terribly exciting. Whichever of us is right, I'm positive it'll be a blast for both of us . And we'll celebrate in the "Revenge" thread, toasting to George Lucas and all the brilliant actors.

I'm very much looking forward to this coming experience.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

It is very true that Sidious has used his great Mastery of the Dark Side to cloud the minds of even the greatest of Jedi but to hide that he is a Changelim is almost to much secrecy to give one character! It's kind of pointless and redundant.

It's not at all redundant. Palpatine hides everything about himself. For him to hide that too wouldn't mess with the story at all (unless they made a big deal about it).

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Palpatine is most likely human, and his . . . as I have "secretly" mentioned before.

It would be very nice if you edited your most recent post and put that comment back in spoiler signs.

As I said before, what you propose here makes sense to me. I don't really think he is a changeling, but I mentioned it as a possibility.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Also when you see his destorted face it doesnt look like a changlim nor does his voice sound like a changlim.

You have a point, there. However, I would respond that it's quite possible not all changelings are alike.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Edit: Oh and yes nearly 10 years had passed between Episode I and Episode II, in EPI Anakin was a 9 year old boy, in EPII he was a 19 year old Jedi Padawan. Amidala is 14 year old Queen and in EPII she is a 24 year old Senator. Episode II and III are seperated by three years, the Clone Wars years, and Episode III to Episode IV is set almost twenty years apart. This makes Anakin around 43 at the end of Jedi.

Okay . Thanks for the data!

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Quoted from Lief Erikson, again...

Obi-Wan said that Syphodias was killed over ten years ago, not before. That means his death didn't have to be within ten years. It had to be more then ten years ago. We don't know by how much. So Syphodias may have died and then come back as Palpatine on Naboo.

If you watch Attack of the Clones more carefully you will hear Obi-wan say, "Master Sifo-dyas was killed ALMOST ten years ago." which means he was not killed ten years ago, nor could he have died more than ten years ago. Furthermore we know that Count Dooku left the order right around the same time Sifo-Dyas was lost, with the loss of his apprentice Qui-Gon Jinn, the conflicting ideals of the Order and himself Dooku was ready to sway Sifo to his cause or kill him for the greater good. Also it is clear to the viewer of Star Wars that the Kaminoians were lied to because Lama Su asks Obi-Wan if Sifo is still a leading member of the Jedi Council and Sifo was not on the council! So Dooku lied about his name and status. The underlying point is Sidious is not Sifo, I am more than 100% sure on this matter, but as you said before Lief, if you are willing to argue the point I will do so...

Quoted from azalea...

I think I remember that Owen Lars was the son of Shmi's new husband by a previous wife; thus Anakin and Owen are stepbrothers, not half brothers (if I'm remembering the scene in TPM correctly).

Owen Lars, and all of his family was never seen in The Phantom Menace Episode I. Owen Lars is deffinitely the son of Cliegg Lars and he says himself durring introductions, "I guess I'm your step brother." and Beru is his girlfriend(not sister). So we can lay that to rest I guess.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Quoted from Lief Erikson, again...

If you watch Attack of the Clones more carefully you will hear Obi-wan say, "Master Sifo-dyas was killed ALMOST ten years ago." which means he was not killed ten years ago, nor could he have died more than ten years ago.

Watch the conversation between Yoda and Obi-Wan again, when Obi-Wan communicates to him and Mace from Kamino. There he said that the Kamino aliens said Syphodias had submitted the order at the Senate's request almost ten years ago. Then Obi-Wan added, "I was under the impression that he was killed before that."

So Obi-Wan and Yoda took it for granted that he was killed earlier then almost ten years ago. Meanwhile, (as you have pointed out) Obi-Wan said to Lama Su that almost ten years ago Syphodias did die. So to me, much as I hate to say it, it looks like there's a contradiction in the film itself.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I had already anticipated your response, I knew your next post would be in reference to Obi-Wan's conversation with Yoda! Haha. If you read the subtitles more clearly it says that the contract was made nearly ten years ago, and, i was under the impression he was killed before that. If the order was made nearly ten years ago it could be, as i have stated before, the contract was made 9 years and 11 months before AOTC, and Sifo-Dyas could have been killed around 9 years and 11 anda half months before AOTC. All of this simply meaning that when Obi-wan made his statemtn to Yoda he was making it in reference to the contract of the clones that he said was nearly ten years go. if he had said 10 years ago and nothing more than perhaps Sifo could have been killed more than 10 years before.

Regardless, if it is less than 10 years or a little over ten years before AOTC that still doesn't allow time for Sifo to die and Palpatine to be "born". Sifo Dyas was a Jedi, Palpatine was never a Jedi. Sidious had a living form in the senate durring the same time Sifo-Dyas hada living form in the Jedi Order. To say that Sidious is Sifo would be to say that Yoda could go to the senate building, talk to senator Palpatine of Naboo and then go right to the Jedi Temple and talk with Jedi Knight Sifo-Dyas and not have a single bit of a clue who it was!? Thats absurd!

The only other real possibilty is for Palpatine to go to Kamino and make the contract and use a fake name while Dooku erased the archive info. Yet that is the same as the theory i already had only Sidious exchanges places for one act with Dooku. I'm sorry but Sidious can Not be Sifo-Dyas, not even in a Sci-Fi fantasy flick like Star Wars.

[Lief Erikson]

This is fun. I had already thought of that response, also. Here is my answer to that one.

It is possible that Syphodias died nearly ten years ago, and that he was supposed to have put in the order after that. However, what Obi-Wan said to Yoda as his time reference to Syphodias' death was exactly what he said to the Prime Minister.

He said to the Prime Minister that Syphodias died nearly ten years ago. He said to Yoda, "Syphodias died nearly ten years ago. I was under the impression that he died before that." Now perhaps these events took place close together. Perhaps Syphodias died before he was supposed to have submitted the order. However, Obi-Wan still said to Yoda that the order was placed nearly ten years ago, and that Syphodias was supposed to have died before that.

Syphodias, according to what Obi-Wan said to the Prime Minister, was not supposed to have died earlier then "nearly ten years ago".

You see, you're measuring this in months. If Obi-Wan had been measuring in months, it's possible that he could have avoided an inconsistency. For example, suppose Syphodias died in November and was supposed to have submitted the order in December (and of course Obi-Wan is in September almost ten years later). That would make both of Obi-Wan's statements make sense- on first glance only, though.

He said to the Prime Minister, "he died nearly ten years ago." So far so good. Syphodias died in November. That is nearly ten years ago. Just two months short.

Obi-Wan then said to Yoda (essentially), "They say Syphodias submitted the order on the Senate's instructions nearly ten years ago. I was under the impression he died before that."

This statement does not make sense, when looked at closely. Obi-Wan's use of the word "before" could refer to December, but if so he's being very unclear. Yoda should have said, "but die nearly ten years ago Syphodias did," because November is also nearly ten years ago. December is, but so is November.

So if you are correct, you must assume that Obi-Wan was being very unclear when he was talking to Yoda. Obi-Wan said that Syphodias died nearly ten years ago, but then he said to Yoda that Syphodias didn't die nearly ten years ago, but earlier. He wasn't talking months when he was speaking to Yoda. He was speaking to him in exactly the same way he'd been speaking to the Prime Minister, using exactly the same term "almost ten years."

I hope this argument isn't written in too unclear a manner.

Originally Posted by Halbarad

Regardless, if it is less than 10 years or a little over ten years before AOTC that still doesn't allow time for Sifo to die and Palpatine to be "born".

"A little over ten years"? That doesn't make sense. Obi-Wan said that Syphodias had died earlier then almost ten years ago, in his conversation with Yoda. That doesn't mean "a little over ten years." It means at least one or two years. Quite possibly more. We don't know how long that was. I admit that anything over twenty years is a bit of a long shot. But anyway, it still leaves open possibilities.

[Lief Erikson]

By the way, Halbarad, I would appreciate it if you didn't speak to me in what I view as a condescending manner. "If you had watched 'Attack of the Clones' more closely," "If you had read the subtitles more carefully," (though that wasn't an argument at all, by the way. Those subtitles in no way contradicted what I was saying). These kinds of statements take all enjoyment out of the discussion, for me. The argument on a purely technical level is enjoyable. When it gets nasty, like when you feel angry enough to use the word "damn," or to condescend to me, this thread loses all pleasure as far as I'm concerned, and debating with you seems worthless. I promise you that I have never intended to offend you in any of my posts, but probably unintentionally, you have somewhat offended me.

My reason for asking for the sources for your spoilers was quite simple. I heard "spoilers" about "Attack of the Clones" before it came out, and none of them turned out to be accurate. So I have become less trusting .

For sheer intellectual sport, this discussion has been fun. I'll be interested to see how this thread changes when we've watched the movies and can compare opinions on what George Lucas did do with the Emperor's origins (a subject that has fascinated me for several years).

It's obvious to me that you're a dedicated Star Wars fan, Halbarad. As such I respect you (I'm a Star Wars geek meself ). Anyway, just stay cool.

Regards,
Lief

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

The problem with threads is you can not hear the tone and intent. I was not being condescending in my posts, though if taken in that light they very well can be. I was making my statements in a litteral sense.... l had to look closer to see what i see so i am no different than you. however i do not appreciate words being put into my mouth Lief... i never made the statement "If you had watched 'Attack of the Clones' more closely" one single word changes the whole context.... i said "if you watch..." not if you had. Anywho.... i am not intentionally being condescending... it is how i speak and how i am spoken to. i am not questioning your intelligence i am arguing a point that has many points that may be ooverlooked by you and/or me.... or anyone.... so there ya go...

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by azalea

I think I remember that Owen Lars was the son of Shmi's new husband by a previous wife; thus Anakin and Owen are stepbrothers, not half brothers (if I'm remembering the scene in TPM correctly).

Is he? Funny, for one reason or another I was convinced Owen was the son of Shmi. Oh well, it settles it anyway. I'll have to pay more attention to dialogs in the future.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

The problem with threads is you can not hear the tone and intent. I was not being condescending in my posts, though if taken in that light they very well can be. I was making my statements in a litteral sense.... l had to look closer to see what i see so i am no different than you. however i do not appreciate words being put into my mouth Lief... i never made the statement "If you had watched 'Attack of the Clones' more closely" one single word changes the whole context.... i said "if you watch..." not if you had. Anywho.... i am not intentionally being condescending... it is how i speak and how i am spoken to. i am not questioning your intelligence i am arguing a point that has many points that may be ooverlooked by you and/or me.... or anyone.... so there ya go...

Okay, well, as I said in my other post, I thought it probably was unintentional. I'm glad I was right.

Was my most recent argument regarding Obi-Wan's lack of reference to months clearly enough written?

~Lief

[Lief Erikson]

By the way, happy birthday .

My sister's got a birthday about now too. Watching "Revenge of the Sith" just at that time is going to be a marvelous present for her.