Why didn't Saruman take Gandalf's Ring?

[cassiopeia]

I've taken the burden upon myself to start some new threads here, so here it goes.
So, why didn't Saruman take Narya from Gandalf? From UT, he evidently knew that Gandalf had one of the Three. Saruman certainly had ample opportunity to take it from Gandalf, and surely, even if it was of no use to him, Saruman would take it to lessen Gandalf's powers.

[Lalaith]

Are you sure that he did know that Gandalf had the ring?
If he knew, I guess that he didn't want one of the lesser rings and probably it wouldn't have been too easy to get the ring at all. I mean if it would have been that easy, other persons could have tried to get one either from Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf.

[cassiopeia]

It says in Unfinished Tales:

And the Grey Messenger [Gandalf] took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] ... after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey. ...

Sorry, I should have put that in my first post.

[Artanis]

It's a very good question. The only answer I can think of right now is that Saruman was convinced Gandalf would never escape from Orthanc, and that he would have plenty of time later to rip from him whatever he wanted to. Also he may not have been interested in Narya in itself, the power of this ring could give was not that sort of power he wanted. He was just jealous of the fact that it was Gandalf, and not himself, that had been given the honour to bear the ring.

[Baby-K]

Perhaps Saruman was so intent on getting The One Ring, that he was blinded to the possibilities of possesing a lesser ring would hold?

Even though he begrudged Gandalf the ring that he had, he might have felt that owning the 'One' would be far better than what Gandalf had & would thus be an even greater 'revenge'?

[Jonathan]

Have you considered the possibility that Tolkien simply might have forgotten that Saruman knew about Gandalf's ring?

By the way, did Gandalf know that Saruman knew about his ring?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Have you considered the possibility that Tolkien simply might have forgotten that Saruman knew about Gandalf's ring?

You're onto something, but I think it's the other way around. The essay about the Istari, as given in UT, was written after the two first volumes of LotR. Could it be that Saruman knowing about Gandalv's ring wasn't known to Tolkien until then?

[Tessar]

If Saruman had the one ring why would he need to HAVE Gandalf's? He would control ALL the rings, whether he had them on his person or not. He didn't need to take Gandalf's.

[Sheeana]

Yeah, and wasn't he building essays of lesser rings? And I guess he didn't want to give himself away too soon as well - I would guess that he would rather have held out for the one ring, than to have pre-empted, and retrieved a lesser ring, and shown his hand to Gandalf. Doubtful that he could have controlled Gandalf's ring though. Hopefully Gandalf would have seen Saruman's intentions and passed the ring on.

[Rían]

Perhaps this: Saruman prob. thought it would take a great deal of his power to wrest the ring from Gandalf, and he thought Gandalf was safe up in the tower, so why not just keep Gandalf on the "back burner" for awhile and keep his strength up to get the BIG ring.

[Lady of Rohan]

I, for some strange reason, never thought of Gandalf having the ring during the time of the quest, much less of Saruman knowing about it (thats the great thing about these threads...... they get me thinking). I agree with Rian's oppinion. I think he was probably just waiting, for something to happen.

[Insidious Rex]

Would saruman be able to "hide" his posession of the ring to sauron if he took it? Since they were in touch. and sauron could easily sense such things anyway. Wouldnt this have dashed all his plans of being the new ring lord if sauron suddenly knew he was hording a ring of power himself? Im guessing its not an easy task to shield the presence of the rings from sauron and his minions. and since he was in direct contact with sauron it would have been evern harder.

[Dreran the Green]

That's very true. Also, perhaps Sarumaun thought that once he gained possesion of The One he could use it to bend Narya to his will, thus corrupting Gandalf and turning him into little more than a servant. Now THAT would be a revenge! *shudders* poor Gandalf, so many people seem to have it in for him But I still love him

[azalea]

I doubt Sauron would have known had Saruman had the ring, because I don't think he knew where the other rings were, and certainly Saruman had more power to hide it than Elrond and Galadriel, who were hiding theirs. Plus, would YOU want to be wearing one of those rings when Sauron found the One (as Saruman thought he might), and if HE found it first, what use would the lesser ring be to him? It would be more valuable to him if Gandalf still possessed it, and otherwise, it would be better for him if Gandalf had it than if he had it in the event that Sauron found the One.

[Agburanar]

I was under the impression that Gandalf did not recieve the ring before he became Gandalf the White.

This way he would not have had it when he visited Saruman.

[Rían]

There's a little passage in the Sil that talks about Mithrandir (Gandalf) receiving the ring:

from the Sil, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Now all these things were achieved for the most part by the counsel and vigilance of Mithrandir, and in the last few days he was revealed as a lord of great reverence, and clad in white he rode into battle; but not until the time came for him to depart was it known that he had long guarded the Red Ring of Fire. At the first that Ring had been entrusted to CÃ*rdan, Lord of the Havens; but he had surrendered it to Mithrandir, for he knew whence he came and whither at last he would return.
"Take now this Ring," he said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee."

So it looks like Gandalf got the ring from CÃ*rdan right when he first came to Middle Earth.

[Snowdog]

However, if it was not known until his departure, then Gandalf did indeed keep it a secret from Sarumann, and everyone else save Cirdan.

[Earniel]

Good question, cass.

My first idea was that if Saruman had known about Narya, he wouldn't have taken because he no longer wanted it. Something along the lines of "If stupid Cirdan'd rather give it to stupid Gandalf, fine then. Let him keep it. I don't want it anymore! I'll get me a better one."

A bit childish perhaps but I always found Saruman a bit childish with the whole act of laughing at Gandalf for smoking and then secretly acquiring pipeweed. You have to get that old and powerful to be reduced to this level of pettyness.

But a more logical explanation would probably be that Saruman desired only the One Ring. It had much greater power. And the Three were only safe because they were hidden. If their bearers were revealed to the One, it would have been a different matter. If Saruman had the One Ring, I think he could have more control over Gandalf through the connection of the rings because he knew that Gandalf had Narya.

[Dreran the Green]

Nooo!!! If Sarumaun controlled Gandalf it would be terrible!!

[cassiopeia]

I suppose the answer to this question depends how much credence you give to the text in UT. As Artanis said, it was written after the LOTR was written, so Tolkien would not have know that Saruman knew that Gandalf had the ring (whew, I hope that made sense!)
It's much easier for me to accept that Saruman simply didn't know about the ring. Though I can see that Gandalf would have no problem revealing the fact to him before he became aware that Saruman was searching for the One Ring.
I like Earniel's explanation as to why Saruman didn't take Narya: once Saruman had the One Ring he could control Gandalf.