REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Ruinel]

I've searched Entmoot for a thread that actually lives up to the title of this thread and I've found nothing. "OH, wait!" you say, "What about "the Offshoot thread?" Nope, RÃ*an has made it clear that the 'Offshoot' thread is for people to come to that thread and allow her (and the other Christians) to answer questions regarding Christianity.

So, I've decided to open a new thread for the purpose of actually debating religion, as well as, discussing ANY religion (not just Christianity). I'm interested to know how many Hindus are here, how many Jews, etc. If you are Christian, are you Pentacostal, Catholic, Baptist, what? Why do you worship that religion? Were you born into it? Did you convert from your former religion to this new one?

I'll start.

I'm an Atheist. Atheists do not believe that any god or gods exist(s). I do not take religious teachings nor literary works at face value without intelligent thought and question, especially when they are incredible to believe. I don't believe that a supernatural being created the universe or life. I believe that the Bible and other religious writings were written by humans for the purpose of explaining the harsh world to primitive man. These writings then developed into a set of rules by which the followers of that religion obeyed without question in order to assume borders by which a society could smoothly run.

I was not born into Atheism. I was born Catholic, and raised Catholic. Although I have always questioned religion (much to the dismay of my religious instructors and my parents) and tried hard to fit the reality of life, constant contradictions, scientific facts and discoveries and reason into Christianity, it never was a perfect fit. The more I questioned, the more I doubted.

{Edit: One more thing. Atheism really isn't a religion but I chose this title in case it goes dormant for a while and someone does a search for something like this. }

Your turn.

EDIT: this thread has been splitt due to its size. Next post can be found in this other thread

[Lizra]

I believe the thread is "Theism"....started by the charming Anduril!

[Ruinel]

Ah, damn! I used .. christianity OR religion. I didn't think to use theism. But is it the same thing as my thread?

[Ruinel]

oh! I just checked. It's a closed thread. And is about theism, not really a discussion about religion or a disbelief in it.

[The Gaffer]

Hello

I am of the same religious persuasion as yourself, though raised in a Protestant (Church of Scotland) household.

I'd suggest an addition to your "religion as explanation" hypothesis: community. Religions create and maintain community ties (from personal, life-partner type relationships to intercontinental charitable type relationships) in ways that secular society has as yet failed to emulate. These ties benefit everyone; indeed they're essential to our survival as individuals and as a species.

Reading the debate about marriage on one of the other threads it struck me, again, that these cultural markers of personal relationships simply don't exist outside of a religious context. Secular weddings do happen, of course, but nobody knows what to do at them. Where I come from, Christian weddings are ubiquitous and everyone knows what to do at them (get lathered and have the best party of your life) whether or not they're religious. There's clearly a "separation of church and state" issue here, but I think the main thing is that our secular culture hasn't yet developed these universal rituals which validate our lives in the same way.

[Arien the Maia]

weel, as I'm sure I've said beofre in the "Offshoot" thread, I'm Catholic. I've been Catholic all my life. Of course growing up in a household where my dad was a seventh day adventist and my mom was catholic had quite an impact on me. Nevertheless, I believe what the church teaches and have faith in Jesus Christ. I guess that's about all.

[Ruinel]

Arien, how did it have an impact. I'm not familiar with 7th day adventists.

[Artanis]

I was raised as a Christian, but our family was never very religious, which means we didn't go to church or prayed regularly and such. We didn't attend any Christian communities. Now I define myself as an agnostic. Basically it means that I live my life as an atheist would, yet I do not entirely deny the existance of God.

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Reading the debate about marriage on one of the other threads it struck me, again, that these cultural markers of personal relationships simply don't exist outside of a religious context. Secular weddings do happen, of course, but nobody knows what to do at them.

I'm interested to hear how this is in other parts of the world. Where I live, we have secular counterparts of all main religious seremonies: marriage, baptism, communion, confirmation, and funerals. Hubby and I were married by a judge in the Town Hall. If I had been a lesbian, I could have married another woman the same way. My children are not baptised, but each of them participated in a ceremony arranged by the Humanist Association, celebrating their coming into the family and the society. When the children are 14-15, they will have to choose whether they want a Christian confirmation or a secular one (if they choose a Christian they'll have to be baptised first of course). The Humanist Association also arranges funerals.

[Elf Girl]

I'm trying to convert to Buddhism, after hearing the Dalai Lama speak. Not quite there yet, though.

[afro-elf]

I am am with Ruinel and The Gaffer.

[afro-elf]

I should have added that I started out in Catholic school. Then did some Southern Black Baptist then moved on to Easten philosophy. Even got a philosophy degree with a focus in Asian thought forms. But there was always a skeptic in me . Simply, I couldn't bull**** myself anymore. It was that the evidence was not in favor for holding on to such beliefs.

For me



Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits." Dan Barker


Mystical explanations are thought to be deep; the truth is that they are not even shallow.
: Friedrich Nietzsche

and finally

"I can live with doubt and uncertainty, I think it is much more
interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might
be wrong. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being
lost in a mysterious universe [that is] without any purpose,
which is the way it really is, so far as I can tell. It doesn't
frighten me." --- Richard Feynman

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Arien, how did it have an impact. I'm not familiar with 7th day adventists.

Well, seventh day adventists are Christians but they're alot like Jewish people too in that they go to church on Sat ( they celebrate the sabbath) and observe the health regulations of the Old Testament. They also have a dislike for Catholics and some even regard the Pope as the anit-Christ. They are EXTREMELY bible based and believe that the end of the world is coming soon and most likely will happen in their lifetime. so, my mom being Cahtolic, and my dad and his family being adventist, I'm sure you can see where problems would arise!

[Ornelírë Mistë]

I want to become Buddhist, don't know where to start though! As I know it, there are 3 branches: Zen, Tibetan, and something more close to what Siddhartha taught. I want to be of the last one, I'd appreciate any directions

[Lizra]

Ok...I'm with Ruinel, The Gaffer, and Afro Elf., that would be atheist. My parents let me go to various churches for socialization purposes, but they are devoid of religion also. It just seems like another fairy tale to us.

[Elvengirl]

I am a Scientologist, born and raised. I have studied other religions, but no other one has really been true for me.
I don't know how many of you are familiar with it and I don't have time to expain right now, but if anyone has any questions, I'll be happy to explain.

[zinnite]

I'm agnostic. Nothing indicates to me the existence of any sort of supernatural, paranormal deity, but I also do not see any reason to reject the idea of such a being as impossible. I guess one could say I'm keeping my options open, but honestly, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I wouldn't live my life any differently if I did know the answer. As far as I'm concerned, the entire notion of even having a position on the subject is completely pointless.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by zinnite
I'm agnostic. Nothing indicates to me the existence of any sort of supernatural, paranormal deity, but I also do not see any reason to reject the idea of such a being as impossible. I guess one could say I'm keeping my options open, but honestly, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

dah. and i consider agnosticism the only real rational approach to sprirituality. all the others require faith.

[afro-elf]

What does it mean to be a skeptic? Some people believe that skepticism is rejection of new ideas, or worse, they confuse “skeptic� with “cynic� and think that skeptics are a bunch of grumpy curmudgeons unwilling to accept any claim that challenges the status quo. This is wrong. Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas—no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position. Ideally, skeptics do not go into an investigation closed to the possibility that a phenomenon might be real or that a claim might be true. When we say we are “skeptical,� we mean that we must see compelling evidence before we believe. Skeptics are from Missouri—the “show me� state. When we hear a fantastic claim we say, “that’s nice, prove it.�

I think the quote is from Michael Shermer or Sherman

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Artanis
Where I live, we have secular counterparts of all main religious seremonies: marriage, baptism, communion, confirmation, and funerals. Hubby and I were married by a judge in the Town Hall. If I had been a lesbian, I could have married another woman the same way. My children are not baptised, but each of them participated in a ceremony arranged by the Humanist Association, celebrating their coming into the family and the society.

What a civilised society you live in. Are they legally recognised?

The Humanist Association also do that here (UK). The thing is that these are new ideas to most of us and they don't have anything like the cultural significance that a religious service does. Which, to my mind, is a huge part of the reason for having them.

Nice quotes, Afro-Elf. I'm sure there's one from Douglas Adams along the lines of:

"Why can't you see a beautiful garden as being beautiful in its own right? Why do you have to believe there are fairies at the bottom of it?"

[Artanis]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
What a civilised society you live in. Are they legally recognised?

I'm not sure what you mean by legally recognised (unsufficient knowledge of the English language, sorry). In general, anyone may apply to the government for the permission to arrange such services. IOW, it is licenced. Today, only judges may wed people outside church, and the Humanist Association is, by my knowledge, the only organisation that perform the other services.

The Humanist Association also do that here (UK). The thing is that these are new ideas to most of us and they don't have anything like the cultural significance that a religious service does. Which, to my mind, is a huge part of the reason for having them.

New ideas? Isn't it common in almost all cultures to have rituals marking the important happenings in a person's lifeline? The beginning of life, the step from childhood to adulthood, marriage, and the end of a life. But I guess the significance of these rituals in our society depends a lot on how they are performed. Perhaps that is what you're talking about when you say 'new ideas', how they are to be performed? I'm happy about how the Humanist Association implement them where I live (Norway) because they suit my personal beliefs and needs. Instead of church they talk about society, instead of religion they weight general philosophy and human rights aspects.