Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

So just to clarify, because I could hardly be considered familiar with this sort of thing (though I hope to be more so in the future! ), what it says is that if you willingly and knowingly reject the Church, etc, that you will go to Hell. And if you are ignorant of such things by no fault of you own, then. . .you will not be held accountable for that, so does that mean you can be saved? They're joined "invisibly?" So anyone who does not know of the Church is still part of it, in a sense, without their knowing?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

"Willingly and knowingly reject the Church"; if "knowingly" is interpreted as "knowing that it is the Church of God", then yes, to the best of my understanding. Anyone who does not know of the Church may be invisibly joined; they are not by neccesity. Other than that, I believe you are correct.

[Rían]

But Gwai, I think she's asking this: if you've never heard of the Roman Catholic (RC) church, are you automatically "saved", irregardless of your beliefs? (is this right, EG?) IOW, a devil worshipper who practices things that he knows in his heart is wrong, could be an "invisible" member of the church, because he's never heard of the RC church?

From what I understand of what you've posted, Gwai, it's NOT for situations like the one above, but it's for situations like mine - (not that I agree with it), the "invisible" thing is to cover people like me, that are Christian but not a member of the RC church.

But Gwai, really, wouldn't I be going to hell, by RC doctrine, because of this: "He who refuses to join the Church which Christ founded, recognizing that Christ commanded adhesion to his Church, is in the way of perdition".

I refuse to join the RC church because I have problems with their doctrine. I think my church adheres closer to the Bible, and that's why I'm a member. So Gwai, don't I fall into the RC category of refusing to join the Church?

However, I think the RC's are very wrong in this opinion, and the true church of God is made up of believers, and they do NOT have to be in the RC church. And I adhere very strongly to what I consider to be the best example of the true church of God in my area. But again, the true church is made up of believers, and not entire churches in a wholesale manner. I know of many people who say they attended Christian churches for years before they made a decision to become a Christian.

I'll stand by what God says in the Bible about being saved, not by what the RC church says about being saved, which IMO is extrapolated doctrine that is incorrect.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

I'll stand by what God says in the Bible about being saved, not by what the RC church says about being saved, which IMO is extrapolated doctrine that is incorrect.

but isn't that your interpretation of what it means to be saved? How is your interpretation any different fron the Catholic Church's interpretation?

what I mean is, how do we know who has the correct interpretation?

[Rían]

by Arien
what I mean is, how do we know who has the correct interpretation?

I think you need to be somewhat careful with that view, because given that view, one could just sit around forever, refusing to decide anything. And personally, I don't think that's a wise way to live life. I'd rather search for what I think is true, then dive into it and make a difference with my life.

1. The biggest issue to decide, IMO, is whether or not you think it's reasonable that God could exist. And it's stated in the Bible that God gives EVERYONE sufficient evidence, in creation and in their own hearts, that He does indeed exist. And really, looking around you at the world and the stars and the flowers, and also all the ugly things at which your hearts cries out "it's wrong!" - it's a pretty reasonable thing to assume that God exists, but something has gone wrong on a lesser scale (IOW, wrong enough to hurt, but not enough to annihilate the universe He made.) Why would your heart be deeply stirred by beauty, and horrified at wrong, if the world is just an accidental occurrence?

2. If you think it's a fairly good chance that it's a "yes" that God exists, then you need to look into various historical documents and doctrines around you to see how He would have communicated with mankind. (Of course He could exist and have NOT communicated with mankind, but then, why bother to look into anything? It's fairly reasonable to assume that if He created us, He would communicate with us.) IMO, the Biblical record is in a class by itself as far as verifiable ancient literature, and it also matches what we find in our heart (we do things that we know are wrong sometimes, even if we don't want to do them; the vast majority of moral laws we see jive with what we feel is right; and other things like that.) Someone once said "The Bible criticizes me [in an older- fashioned sense of the word - finds and analyzes faults accurately] FAR more than I could criticize the Bible", and I think this is true.

(con't)

[Rían]

(con't from previous post)

3. If we think that there is sufficient evidence, both historically and in our hearts, that the God of the Bible is the God that truly exists, then one needs to decide whether or not to agree with the basics, because the Bible does not only state the way things are, it states what people should DO because of the way things are. And the basics are:

a) that EVERYONE has sinned ("fallen short" of a good and right standard) at some point in their lives (and really, if you're honest with yourself, it's every day ). One of many verses on this subject is Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

b) the rightful penalty of our freely-made choices to sin is death, both physical and spiritual. Two verses on this are: [Jesus speaking]"...for unless you believe that I am He [God], you shall die in your sins." (John 8:24) and [Jesus speaking] "For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul?" (Matthew 16:24)

c) God knew about this possibility of sin when He gave us free will and provided for our restoration with Him by having Jesus, who never sinned, willingly pay the penalty for our sins. Verses on this include: "But God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) and the well-known John 3:16 : "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." Note that, as I said in my fairy-story , God's plan is restoration, BECAUSE He loves us. And another one: [Jesus speaking] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)

d) This belief is NOT a mere intellectual belief, but involves assent with your life; IOW, if you believe, you must act on the belief. As I told someone a while ago, the demons BELIEVE in Jesus (they've seen Him, after all!) but are not restored to God, because it is a mere intellectual belief, as opposed to a belief that you live with your life and your choices. So how do we act on our belief that we have come to? As Jesus says, "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15). Is he just some power-hungry guy that likes to give out meaningless commandments? No, it's for our good - Jesus says, "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full." (John 15:12). God is the creator, and the very source, of our joy.

And restoration with Him is JOY - true and everlasting, present in sorrows and in happiness, and there for all eternity, where there are no more tears. As Paul writes in Romans 8:18, "I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us." And the sufferings that are allowed here on this short (compared to eternity ) time on earth are for our good (lots of verses in James and other places about this). And eternity with God is the very match that our soul was made for, and is fulness of joy.

But it is our choice whether or not we choose to enter into agreement with what is revealed to us. We can choose to walk the path back to the King, that He has made for us thru His choice to bear the penalty of our sin, .... or we can choose to walk away from what is revealed to us. In my story, the princess had a choice. We all have a choice, too, and we all have sufficient evidence to make that choice.

(con't)

[Rían]

And that's what I mean by the basics.

Interpretations on side issues can be right or wrong, but as long as the basic decision is made for God with all your heart, you'll come out right in the end, IMO. Jesus said, "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32) and that the Holy Spirit will guide the believers into all the truth (John 16:13). God is bigger than circumstances, and it doesn't matter to your restoration with God, IMO, whether or not Mary was "immaculately" conceived. As Aslan said to Susan and Lucy, when He had breathed on the stone giant's feet, and they had changed back to flesh, but the rest of him was still stone because of the witch's curse - "It's all right! Once the feet are put right, all the rest of him will follow."

I'll get into some other reasons why I believe that the RC Church DOES NOT have a monopoly on the truth of God - I've done enough for tonight!

God loves you guys, and so do I Please forgive me when I fall into snarkiness, and don't blame it on God - just consider it as evidence for the fact that I'm a sinner! (just like everyone else!) But I love my Redeemer, and am free from the penalty of my sin because of my belief in Him, as it says in Romans 8:1 : "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." And I will spend eternity in joy, along with anyone else that chooses to.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Rian: No, it would not include you. For it to be considered a true rejection, one must be aware of the truth of the Catholic Church, IIRC. And, no, one is not automatically saved for never hearing the Gospel; but they may be saved, through seeking God (however they may understand Him), and striving to know Him. This also would extend to polytheistic faiths; the Scandinavians didn't automatically start going to Hell after Christ's death till they were evangelized, anymore than they automatically started going to Heaven.

I think you need to be somewhat careful with that view, because given that view, one could just sit around forever, refusing to decide anything.

Yes, but I think the point that Arien is making is, what reason is there that your particular interpretation is more true than that of others; also that the Catholics DO believe that what the Catholic Church says about salvation is in the Bible; it is a matter of differing interpretation, not that one is clearly, plainly, and obviously laid out in the Bible without any basis for other interpretation whatsoever, while the other was just made up by some tyrant who wanted to control superstitious fools.

This belief is NOT a mere intellectual belief, but involves assent with your life; IOW, if you believe, you must act on the belief. As I told someone a while ago, the demons BELIEVE in Jesus (they've seen Him, after all!) but are not restored to God, because it is a mere intellectual belief, as opposed to a belief that you live with your life and your choices

You're not the only one who told someone that.

God is bigger than circumstances, and it doesn't matter to your restoration with God, IMO, whether or not Mary was "immaculately" conceived

I agree. However, I don't think that means it doesn't matter, period.

Please forgive me when I fall into snarkiness, and don't blame it on God - just consider it as evidence for the fact that I'm a sinner!

Ditto.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I'll get into some other reasons why I believe that the RC Church DOES NOT have a monopoly on the truth of God - I've done enough for tonight!

Look forward to it, when you have time.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

From the Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual thread, for Rian:

Tell me, and I say this only out of curiousity with no purpose to offend, so I hope I don't, would you agree that when you studied these other faiths, you looked at them through the lens, if you will, of your own? Would you say you saw them through a biased viewpoint? I say this not as an accusation of any kind, just wondering if you would agree with that.

And for an answer. . .oh. . .picking the first one that comes to mind, Pure Land, or Amida Buddhism? I guess this would all go in a different, religion related thread, seeing as I suppose what I am asking for is a discussion. . .er. . .but if you have the time to answer my question, I'd love to hear what you have to say! If not, s'alright. So long as there's no hard feelings between us concerning my reactions, for which I apologize--again, I did not mean to sound angry.

Thanks, Rian! Good luck with your surgery, I hope it all goes well!

Wow. . .kind of stopped following this thread. Sad.