The Anti-theist Thread

afro-elf · 03-21-2002, 01:31 AM

Anduril started a thread to see the reasons why believers believe.

I would like to start one on why non-believers don't believe.

( please no semantics wars on the way the above where stated)

There were threads about religion before that have since been closed.

I believe ( though I could be wrong) the point of andurils thread was not to disparage believers or non- believers but to ask why they felt the way that they did.

so can we try to keep the thread bloodless if possible.

It may be awhile before I post here
The last religious debates wore me one.

**crickhollow** · 03-21-2002, 01:43 AM

*smiles* I was waiting for this from you Afro-elf. Not that it is a bad idea at all. I like the idea, and even if I can't contribute, you can bet I'll be checking back to see what goes on.

Fare thee well!

afro-elf · 03-21-2002, 02:05 AM

I would like that.

I'll be checking your thread too.

perhaps some understanding can be gleaned from these threads as opposed to the din of war that tended to happen before.

Arathorn · 03-21-2002, 02:27 AM

I say it is always healthy for me to know other people's views and ideas. It'll give me a chance to either reinforce, modify, or totally change my beliefs. By saying so, I don't mean by debating with people. I am talking about my own reflections.
I'll be listening.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 03-21-2002, 03:06 AM

Well, I should be posting my thoughts here, as a non-believer. But I don't know quite what to say yet. I'll think on it, and return with my views. Thanks for starting the thread, Afro-elf!

Arathorn · 03-21-2002, 03:15 AM

Although, Afro, I am just a little curious whether there is any negative connotation to the word Atheist or non-theist that you had to call this thread Anti-theist.

It sounds like it's got something against theists.

Oh well, just a thought. Please continue.

afro-elf · 03-21-2002, 05:42 AM

It would have been better to call it the NON theism thread.

I think that anduril's thread was called Theism

I wantonly used anti just to show that this thread served the opposite purpose of that thread

I hope my error does not prevent you from your computer postings that are quite good.

Arathorn · 03-21-2002, 05:48 AM

Not at all.

Just don't be too surprised if the thread title generates an ocasional knee-jerk reaction from some of our fellow mooters. LOL

Darth Tater · 03-21-2002, 10:40 AM

I'm certainly not an Anti-Theist, but you could say I'm between world views.

I was raised in a very strict Orthodox Christian setting. However, I have never been one to follow blindly, so since I could first think for myself I have delved into the history and traditions of the church.

I recently went through a hard period in my life in which I did a lot of contemplating. I realized that I'm not what I've called myself my whole life. I don't live every moment thinking about Jesus or how to follow the Christian world view. Why not? Is it because I'm lazy? That's probably part of it, but there's more. The Christian religion is supposed to be built on love, but the more I looked into it (all forms of Christianity I could get info on) I found this ideal had been buried beneath millenia of a church run by man, not God.

I began to see things in the fabric of the religion that couldn't have anything to do with the divine. Church rules that promoted hate, not love, no matter how much they said "hate the sin, not the sinner." Traditions that could not possibly be true, and were obviously the work of an overactive medieval imagination. And then it all began to fall appart. I saw a desperation in the traditions that had been invisible to me before because I shared it. I saw a religion that trampled the personal, that diluted spirituality through canons upon canons upon canons. But these were what the church was built on! I looked at religions that had not followed the ancient traditions, which is basically every other form of Christianity (fact, not opinion, but we're not here to debate). Gone were these canons, but what little spirituality remained in Orthodoxy was gone as well.

I've decided what I need right now is a connection with the world that is beyond this one. I'm not sure what that is, but I know that, at least now, the path there for me is not through organized religion.

Radagast · 03-21-2002, 01:43 PM

Damn I should have posted my nerdly (and proud) opinion on this thread. Gah, well see the theism thread for why i don't believe (if anyone's interested)

Elvet · 03-21-2002, 02:37 PM

I do not follow any religion, nor do I believe in any god. I do have ethics and morals that govern my behavior, but these come from within me and are independent of external dogma.
I have always felt that religions exist to help guide people though life and to provide some framework for them to base their beliefs on. At this time, I have never needed to know why we are nor what happens when we expire. I have never had enough sadness touch my life that I couldn't accept, nor too much happiness that I had to thank any external force for. This, of course may change and I may need to look for answers in other's beliefs.
I respect other's beliefs, and I'm sure they are as comfortable in their religions as I am in my lack of one.

mirrille · 03-21-2002, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Tater
I recently went through a hard period in my life in which I did a lot of contemplating. I realized that I'm not what I've called myself my whole life. I don't live every moment thinking about Jesus or how to follow the Christian world view. Why not? Is it because I'm lazy? That's probably part of it, but there's more. The Christian religion is supposed to be built on love, but the more I looked into it (all forms of Christianity I could get info on) I found this ideal had been buried beneath millenia of a church run by man, not God.

I began to see things in the fabric of the religion that couldn't have anything to do with the divine. Church rules that promoted hate, not love, no matter how much they said "hate the sin, not the sinner." Traditions that could not possibly be true, and were obviously the work of an overactive medieval imagination. And then it all began to fall appart. I saw a desperation in the traditions that had been invisible to me before because I shared it. I saw a religion that trampled the personal, that diluted spirituality through canons upon canons upon canons. But these were what the church was built on! I looked at religions that had not followed the ancient traditions, which is basically every other form of Christianity (fact, not opinion, but we're not here to debate). Gone were these canons, but what little spirituality remained in Orthodoxy was gone as well.

I've decided what I need right now is a connection with the world that is beyond this one. I'm not sure what that is, but I know that, at least now, the path there for me is not through organized religion.

Wow! You put it more eloquently than I could ever have. I think I am at a similar stage to this. Although I am not against organized religion in principle. It's good for believers to have a community. But the nature of the "organization" can sometimes not be what it should. I want to find a religion where I can see beyond the facade that humans put to dress up or manipulate a faith. If I can strip away the "church" and still see a good and noble and honest principle, and then look again and see that it is still present in the "church" reflected through it's history and present actions, then I will be more sympathetic.

***Earniel*** · 03-21-2002, 02:55 PM

Although I was raised on a very catholic school, I tend to be more of the agnostic side. I started out as a catholic, but around the age of 16, I started to explore the current, modern world a little further. And I noticed how many conflicts have a religious basis. That put me off of it, I guess. I thought that if this is what religion does, I want no part in it. I can't find it in me to follow the religions as they are practised today. And I have an aversion of people trying to force a religion on another.

I do believe that religion might mean a lot to some people and I'm glad for them to have such a thing to believe in. I leave the question open whether there is a god or more of them, but I don't really think so.

Rána Eressëa · 03-21-2002, 09:43 PM

The first thing that killed my belief was depression, but after I had gotten through it using my own will-power and my own drive, I realized that the more I relied on myself and praised myself for my accomplishments and not "someone else", I felt happier and more complete. Doing it the way everyone else did just did not work for me, or help me for that matter. Later on, after I had built up my belief in myself, I started digging into religion. I started comparing religions, and I tried searching for why did religion even exist.

How I see it, is when people began developing complex thought, the idea that they were alone and all that was to life was right in front of them, upset them. Plus, strange occurences were always happening around them that they didn't understand (natural disasters). What's the first thought that pops in your head? There must be something more. There must be someone out there that we can't see. And if there's someone we can't see, where do they live? In a place that we can't see.

We now know why natural disasters happen, and we can prove how. Religion, all in all, is to explain that which we don't understand. It's also to explain what we call "miracales". Even today there are still things we don't get, which I believe someday we might. Religion is there to answer the big question we've always wanted answered: why are we here? You're here because you're here - that's how I see it. I don't need some big, mystical meaning behind human existance to feel like I'm worthy of living.

Sometimes, I see religion as a weakness. A good deal of people can't live without the idea of something more because humans have always wanted something more. We've always wanted eternal bliss, and immortality, and a reason for everything. But I don't need any of that: all I need to live is life. And the bottom line is: that's good enough for me.

I'm happy, and I live the best life I can because of it. I don't feel I need "something more" to validate my existance. A lot of people live good lives because of religion - that's great. It really is. If it makes you a better person, then I don't see the harm. But if you're just following it because you want some deep, profound meaning for your life (which is usually the point), I think that's where the weakness comes in. You should already have meaning: friends, family, living, and yourself.

Also, concerning religion you have the spiritual immortality: after you die, you either go to Heaven or Hell and live there forever. I would rather live and short happy life and fade out of existance, than live forever either in bliss or pain. Basically, I do not want to live forever. I don't care if it's Heaven or Hell - I just don't want it. If there is a beginning for something, there should be an end for it; say like, yin and yang or good and evil. You can't have one without the other. Immortality, spiritual or physical, is just not for me.

Hmm...sorry if this is lengthy

Darth Tater · 03-21-2002, 10:15 PM

So basically you're not religious because you don't wanna live forever?

Wayfarer · 03-21-2002, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Tater
I began to see things in the fabric of the religion that couldn't have anything to do with the divine. Church rules that promoted hate, not love, no matter how much they said "hate the sin, not the sinner." Traditions that could not possibly be true, and were obviously the work of an overactive medieval imagination. And then it all began to fall appart. I saw a desperation in the traditions that had been invisible to me before because I shared it. I saw a religion that trampled the personal, that diluted spirituality through canons upon canons upon canons. But these were what the church was built on! I looked at religions that had not followed the ancient traditions, which is basically every other form of Christianity (fact, not opinion, but we're not here to debate). Gone were these canons, but what little spirituality remained in Orthodoxy was gone as well.

Darth tater... may i share a paraphrased wuote with you?

Quote:

You idiots! All your vaunted religion is nothing moore than rules made by man! You turn away from god in order to follow worthless traditions!

~Jesus Christ

Rána Eressëa · 03-21-2002, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Tater
So basically you're not religious because you don't wanna live forever?

I think if you read what I typed very closely, you would see why I'm not religious. I believe I pointed it out at least five or more times

Darth Tater · 03-21-2002, 10:42 PM

Wayfarer, paraphrased is right!!! I assume you're trying desperately to make that the money-changers quote right?

Oh and RE I made a funny, but then I told you that in AIM so why am I posting it here?

Rána Eressëa · 03-22-2002, 12:10 AM

Because you're weird like that?

Wayfarer · 03-22-2002, 03:44 PM

Actually, tater, he does say something like that.

It was only paraphrased because I couldn't remember exactly what he said.

I'll look it up anbd get back to you, ok?

03-21-2002, 01:31 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	The Anti-theist Thread Anduril started a thread to see the reasons why believers believe. I would like to start one on why non-believers don't believe. ( please no semantics wars on the way the above where stated) There were threads about religion before that have since been closed. I believe ( though I could be wrong) the point of andurils thread was not to disparage believers or non- believers but to ask why they felt the way that they did. so can we try to keep the thread bloodless if possible. It may be awhile before I post here The last religious debates wore me one. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 03-21-2002 at 01:32 AM.

03-21-2002, 01:43 AM	#2
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	smiles I was waiting for this from you Afro-elf. Not that it is a bad idea at all. I like the idea, and even if I can't contribute, you can bet I'll be checking back to see what goes on. Fare thee well! __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

03-21-2002, 02:05 AM	#3
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	I would like that. I'll be checking your thread too. perhaps some understanding can be gleaned from these threads as opposed to the din of war that tended to happen before. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-21-2002, 02:27 AM	#4
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	I say it is always healthy for me to know other people's views and ideas. It'll give me a chance to either reinforce, modify, or totally change my beliefs. By saying so, I don't mean by debating with people. I am talking about my own reflections. I'll be listening. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

03-21-2002, 03:06 AM	#5
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	Well, I should be posting my thoughts here, as a non-believer. But I don't know quite what to say yet. I'll think on it, and return with my views. Thanks for starting the thread, Afro-elf! __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

03-21-2002, 03:15 AM	#6
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Although, Afro, I am just a little curious whether there is any negative connotation to the word Atheist or non-theist that you had to call this thread Anti-theist. It sounds like it's got something against theists. Oh well, just a thought. Please continue. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

03-21-2002, 05:42 AM	#7
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	It would have been better to call it the NON theism thread. I think that anduril's thread was called Theism I wantonly used anti just to show that this thread served the opposite purpose of that thread I hope my error does not prevent you from your computer postings that are quite good. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-21-2002, 05:48 AM	#8
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Not at all. Just don't be too surprised if the thread title generates an ocasional knee-jerk reaction from some of our fellow mooters. LOL __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

03-21-2002, 10:40 AM	#9
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	I'm certainly not an Anti-Theist, but you could say I'm between world views. I was raised in a very strict Orthodox Christian setting. However, I have never been one to follow blindly, so since I could first think for myself I have delved into the history and traditions of the church. I recently went through a hard period in my life in which I did a lot of contemplating. I realized that I'm not what I've called myself my whole life. I don't live every moment thinking about Jesus or how to follow the Christian world view. Why not? Is it because I'm lazy? That's probably part of it, but there's more. The Christian religion is supposed to be built on love, but the more I looked into it (all forms of Christianity I could get info on) I found this ideal had been buried beneath millenia of a church run by man, not God. I began to see things in the fabric of the religion that couldn't have anything to do with the divine. Church rules that promoted hate, not love, no matter how much they said "hate the sin, not the sinner." Traditions that could not possibly be true, and were obviously the work of an overactive medieval imagination. And then it all began to fall appart. I saw a desperation in the traditions that had been invisible to me before because I shared it. I saw a religion that trampled the personal, that diluted spirituality through canons upon canons upon canons. But these were what the church was built on! I looked at religions that had not followed the ancient traditions, which is basically every other form of Christianity (fact, not opinion, but we're not here to debate). Gone were these canons, but what little spirituality remained in Orthodoxy was gone as well. I've decided what I need right now is a connection with the world that is beyond this one. I'm not sure what that is, but I know that, at least now, the path there for me is not through organized religion. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

03-21-2002, 01:43 PM	#10
Radagast Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Merry old England Posts: 413	Damn I should have posted my nerdly (and proud) opinion on this thread. Gah, well see the theism thread for why i don't believe (if anyone's interested) __________________ Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought.

03-21-2002, 02:37 PM	#11
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	I do not follow any religion, nor do I believe in any god. I do have ethics and morals that govern my behavior, but these come from within me and are independent of external dogma. I have always felt that religions exist to help guide people though life and to provide some framework for them to base their beliefs on. At this time, I have never needed to know why we are nor what happens when we expire. I have never had enough sadness touch my life that I couldn't accept, nor too much happiness that I had to thank any external force for. This, of course may change and I may need to look for answers in other's beliefs. I respect other's beliefs, and I'm sure they are as comfortable in their religions as I am in my lack of one. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

03-21-2002, 02:55 PM	#13
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Although I was raised on a very catholic school, I tend to be more of the agnostic side. I started out as a catholic, but around the age of 16, I started to explore the current, modern world a little further. And I noticed how many conflicts have a religious basis. That put me off of it, I guess. I thought that if this is what religion does, I want no part in it. I can't find it in me to follow the religions as they are practised today. And I have an aversion of people trying to force a religion on another. I do believe that religion might mean a lot to some people and I'm glad for them to have such a thing to believe in. I leave the question open whether there is a god or more of them, but I don't really think so. __________________ We are not things.

03-21-2002, 09:43 PM	#14
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	The first thing that killed my belief was depression, but after I had gotten through it using my own will-power and my own drive, I realized that the more I relied on myself and praised myself for my accomplishments and not "someone else", I felt happier and more complete. Doing it the way everyone else did just did not work for me, or help me for that matter. Later on, after I had built up my belief in myself, I started digging into religion. I started comparing religions, and I tried searching for why did religion even exist. How I see it, is when people began developing complex thought, the idea that they were alone and all that was to life was right in front of them, upset them. Plus, strange occurences were always happening around them that they didn't understand (natural disasters). What's the first thought that pops in your head? There must be something more. There must be someone out there that we can't see. And if there's someone we can't see, where do they live? In a place that we can't see. We now know why natural disasters happen, and we can prove how. Religion, all in all, is to explain that which we don't understand. It's also to explain what we call "miracales". Even today there are still things we don't get, which I believe someday we might. Religion is there to answer the big question we've always wanted answered: why are we here? You're here because you're here - that's how I see it. I don't need some big, mystical meaning behind human existance to feel like I'm worthy of living. Sometimes, I see religion as a weakness. A good deal of people can't live without the idea of something more because humans have always wanted something more. We've always wanted eternal bliss, and immortality, and a reason for everything. But I don't need any of that: all I need to live is life. And the bottom line is: that's good enough for me. I'm happy, and I live the best life I can because of it. I don't feel I need "something more" to validate my existance. A lot of people live good lives because of religion - that's great. It really is. If it makes you a better person, then I don't see the harm. But if you're just following it because you want some deep, profound meaning for your life (which is usually the point), I think that's where the weakness comes in. You should already have meaning: friends, family, living, and yourself. Also, concerning religion you have the spiritual immortality: after you die, you either go to Heaven or Hell and live there forever. I would rather live and short happy life and fade out of existance, than live forever either in bliss or pain. Basically, I do not want to live forever. I don't care if it's Heaven or Hell - I just don't want it. If there is a beginning for something, there should be an end for it; say like, yin and yang or good and evil. You can't have one without the other. Immortality, spiritual or physical, is just not for me. Hmm...sorry if this is lengthy Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 03-21-2002 at 09:48 PM.

03-21-2002, 10:15 PM	#15
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	So basically you're not religious because you don't wanna live forever? __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

03-21-2002, 10:42 PM	#18
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Wayfarer, paraphrased is right!!! I assume you're trying desperately to make that the money-changers quote right? Oh and RE I made a funny, but then I told you that in AIM so why am I posting it here? __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

03-22-2002, 12:10 AM	#19
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Because you're weird like that?

03-22-2002, 03:44 PM	#20
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Actually, tater, he does say something like that. It was only paraphrased because I couldn't remember exactly what he said. I'll look it up anbd get back to you, ok? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

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