Why you believe what you believe I - Page 5

Mercutio · 10-09-2004, 12:01 PM

Lizra--

(I hope this makes sense)

As an atheist do you consider yourself your own god?

Lizra · 10-10-2004, 12:44 AM

Merc...there is no such thing as a "God".

inked · 10-10-2004, 01:07 AM

Lizra,

I caught your answer about reason. I take it that you think it is mentally objectively existent as the data from your sensory input reveals objectively existent reality outside yourself.

My goal in finding these two things out was simply to see where you stood in relation to them.

Some are atheists because of an abject materialism which reason will not support. (So, should we ever care to discuss further I can't take that route of conversation

).

I trust my senses (within limits) and my reason (with caveats for my ignorances and errors of logic and upset tummy). With those one can get a lead to natural morality (which you evidenced earlier in this thread) and virtues. It was here that CS Lewis began "Right and Wrong as Clue" in his MERE CHRISTIANITY. Interestingly, he was an avowed atheist for a significant part of his life as related in his autobiograph SURPRISED BY JOY.

Do you ever have moments when the combination of your senses and your reason lead you to a near-belief state. CS Lewis related such moments, and given your open stance, I thought I'd ask.

CIAO!!!

Lizra · 10-10-2004, 01:24 AM

Inked...I must be frank and say I do not understand the second sentence of your post.

It is like reading algebra or something.......

The fourth sentence is bouncing off my brain also.

I have Mere Christianity on my bookshelf, and I remember thinking it was a pretty good book.

The times I have been closest to a "near-belief" state have always been from strong desire....If I can recall these times corectly (questionable for me lately!

) It was/is the senses and reason that have always held me back!

Mercutio · 10-10-2004, 02:26 PM

Let me clarify. "God" as in thing with total control. Since you believe in no god (as in supernatural being) don't you consider yourself the highest power in your own world?

I hope that's more sense.

inked · 10-10-2004, 07:57 PM

Lizra,

My second sentence said I understood from your answer that you found reason to be objectively real (existent apart from you) just as you found the world revealed to your senses to be objectively real (existent apart from you).
Am I correct in that understanding?

My fourth sentence said that people who rely on materialism as a philosophy usually argue that God cannot exist on the basis of that philosophy, but that philosophy has a fatal flaw. Since you do not appear to take that stance as the cause of your atheism, why bore you? (And I'll try to remember that and never bore you with it

if my neurons hold onto the thought!)

It interests me that you say that the closest moments to belief were moments of strong desire. CS Lewis says what seems to be the same thing. He referred to the experience as JOY and I have understood him to mean the experience of a reality greater than that we usually inhabit which calls us out of ourselves into that greater realm. If you are interested and read the SURPRISED BY JOY referred to earlier, you could compare experiences of desire with those he calls joy. I hasten to add that he had those experiences for years before he became a Deist much less a Christian. So this is not a sneak attack to convert you. The milieu in which CSL and JRRT worked and wrote was in fact highly atheistic.

PS Your neurons can't be much older than mine! I'll be 50 next April. Thankfully, I have been reading Tolkein and Inklings for >30 of those years. I really have enjoyed being able to reflect on them with fellow readers, nay, devotees, of many varying backgrounds. It enhances the pleasure!!!

Lizra · 10-10-2004, 08:00 PM

Mercutio.....I try to decide what I will to do, but quite a few decisions are somewhat, if not totally out of my control. Other people's needs might take precedence over mine, or I might only have certain options (if any

) available...so no, Mercutio, that would not be a correct statement for me.

Excellent Inked!

...you are older than me!

.....I like "older" men!

inked · 10-10-2004, 08:22 PM

Lizra,

Delighted my age pleases someone besides me!!!
You do realize of course that I grew up with the axiom "Never trust anyone over 30"! That means I haven't been able to trust myself for nearly 20 years.

But I don't think I'm old - it sneaks up on you 60 seconds to the minute, 60 minutes to the hour, 24 hours to the day, 365 days to the year (except leap years which net your 366 days), 10 years to the decade - more like a fine wine, matured. Or perhaps, a ripe cheese

!

It's such a shame you didn't know me when I was younger and KNEW EVERYTHING. If they had only listened to me! ...

!

Last Child of Ungoliant · 10-11-2004, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizra

No I don't understand LCoU!

I don't understand why you think it is obvious/apparent (or whatever!

) that the unverse must be part of someone's master plan, and not the result of time, space, and various forces of ...nature...? (for lack of a better word

)

i didn't mean that there was 'someone' controlling, or creating, more that there must be some purpose to our existence, at least to ourselves, hope that clarifies things at least a small amount!!

Lizra · 10-11-2004, 08:09 AM

So, you want a purpose, it makes living more palatable? I understand that.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 10-11-2004, 08:12 AM

I am saying that people create a purpose for themselves
whereas theistic religion would have you believe that God(s)
create that purpose, and impose it on you, sort of an erasion
of personal fate, and thus personal individuality

Yes, what you said above me!

**Nurvingiel** · 10-11-2004, 08:46 AM

A. Lizra, given that we know nearly nothing about the universe around us, you don't suppose that there might be a being or beings more powerful than ourselves?

If you said "yes" to A...

B. If you do feel that this might be possible, could it also be possible that this being or these beings made the universe?

What force to you believe made the universe? Or, do you believe it has always existed? (Sorry if you already answered that one.)

(I intend those questions in the nicest and non-judgemental way possible, it's just hard to convey that in text.)

Lizra · 10-11-2004, 08:55 AM

Pardon me, for changing my last post LCoU. I first thought you were Mercutio, and my train of thought was on a slightly different track.

I do not accept that there is a preconcieved purpose for my life (as stated by some of the religions I am familiar with) , because I do not believe that there has been any other person who has ever existed that was given "special" knowledge about this world by a supernatural being, to pass on to the rest of us. IMO, this is all wishfull thinking on the part of human beings looking for answers. HUman beings have always loved the idea of super natural beings, mythology has always been around. I believe that this mythology has existed and continues to exist because of this exact "lack of purpose" that you mention. We seem to be very goal oriented!

I personnaly have a strong, impossible to deny, requirement that my perceptions of my life must be believable...by me.

I have seen much proof in life that human beings will say anything to manipulate and control others (whether with good intentions or bad

) I do not believe in prophets, and I do not believe in miracles. And I cannot believe, without my own self realization being involved, what others say about something as important as "the purpose of my life!

...... Doubting Lizra.

Maybe that is because as a young person, I was allowed to come to my own conclusions, and so I base my opinion on my senses and reason.

I don't know, it's hard to go back in time ...brain development wise!

)

No matter how appealing, I cannot jump on a fictional bandwagon. So...I guess I do not allow myself to indulge in a purpose for life. Wanting, even needing, a purpose for existance does not make it real IMO. If that means I walk around with some kind of "hole in my heart"

I am strong enough to deal with/accept it. I cannot enter into a fairy tale.

Lizra · 10-11-2004, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

A. Lizra, given that we know nearly nothing about the universe around us, you don't suppose that there might be a being or beings more powerful than ourselves?

If you said "yes" to A...

B. If you do feel that this might be possible, could it also be possible that this being or these beings made the universe?

What force to you believe made the universe? Or, do you believe it has always existed? (Sorry if you already answered that one.)

(I intend those questions in the nicest and non-judgemental way possible, it's just hard to convey that in text.)

Nurv...my answer to A. is no,...but what do you mean by "powerful" anyway! That is an intriguing thought! What might this/these beings be able to do?

I do not know how the universe came to be, but making up stories isn't my answer for that lack of knowledge.

***Valandil*** · 10-11-2004, 09:03 AM

Lizra - again, thanks for having the patience to field all those questions!

I have the impression we're getting into a lot of repetition though. What do the rest of you think? Time to let Lizra off the 'hot seat'?

Last Child of Ungoliant · 10-11-2004, 09:04 AM

the world was created on the back of an elephant, standing on four turtles, everyone knows that

, and the dragons and sea serpents that guard the edges make sure that the boats don't fall off the edge of the world, and the sea stays where it is, i thought all this was common knowledge!

seriously though, early civilisation created those stories to fill the holes in their knowledge, I don't honestly think that they were intended to form the basis for reasonable thinking once we had found what we believe to be the answers [i.e; big bang, evolution etc], but if other people want to believe that they are to form the basis for rational thinking, I feel that that is entirely their choice, and I would neither support nor sabotage.

(Wow, an intelligent post after lunch - not like me

)

Lizra · 10-11-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

the world was created on the back of an elephant, standing on four turtles, everyone knows that

, and the dragons and sea serpents that guard the edges make sure that the boats don't fall off the edge of the world, and the sea stays where it is, i thought all this was common knowledge!

seriously though, early civilisation created those stories to fill the holes in their knowledge, I don't honestly think that they were intended to form the basis for reasonable thinking once we had found what we believe to be the answers [i.e; big bang, evolution etc], but if other people want to believe that they are to form the basis for rational thinking, I feel that that is entirely their choice, and I would neither support nor sabotage.

(Wow, an intelligent post after lunch - not like me

)

I think I can pretty much go along with that.

**Nurvingiel** · 10-11-2004, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizra

Nurv...my answer to A. is no,...but what do you mean by "powerful" anyway! That is an intriguing thought! What might this/these beings be able to do?

I do not know how the universe can to be, but making up stories isn't my answer for that lack of knowledge.

Your answer is intelligent and wholly consistent with your previous statements, as usual.

This is good, as it clearly shows that you've thought out your beliefs in a rational and intelligent way.

As a side note, more spiritual and/or religious people will probably not be able to be quite that obvious (for lack of a better word, help me out here people

). What I mean is, your beliefs are based on reason and logic, which is fine. You are intelligent, so you can explain them well and clearly.

Though I am also intelligent, I will not be able to explain my beliefs quite so well. Some of my beliefs are based on reason, and some on the heart. It is hard sometimes to explain how and why your heart feels the way it does, but that does not render them any less valid.

Anyway, I digress, I'm sure this will come up later.

I'd be perfectly happy to let Lizra off the hot seat - I think I understand where you're coming from. I think the universe is more complex, but I see that your beliefs make sense, and are beautiful in simplicity (<- which is intended as a compliment and is meant to be taken that way.

)

I'd volunteer to go next, but I think there are other people "ahead" of me in the "line". Now is a good time for me though - I'm taking a totally slack class, and have way more free time than I will in November.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 10-11-2004, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

Lizra - again, thanks for having the patience to field all those questions!

I have the impression we're getting into a lot of repetition though. What do the rest of you think? Time to let Lizra off the 'hot seat'?

I do not want to be 'hot-seated', I can however throw in a few remarks hee and there though...

Lizra · 10-11-2004, 11:47 AM

Thanks Nurvingiel. I understand what you are saying.

10-09-2004, 12:01 PM	#81
Mercutio Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Narnia Posts: 1,656	Lizra-- (I hope this makes sense) As an atheist do you consider yourself your own god? __________________ Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries.

10-10-2004, 01:07 AM	#83
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Lizra, I caught your answer about reason. I take it that you think it is mentally objectively existent as the data from your sensory input reveals objectively existent reality outside yourself. My goal in finding these two things out was simply to see where you stood in relation to them. Some are atheists because of an abject materialism which reason will not support. (So, should we ever care to discuss further I can't take that route of conversation ). I trust my senses (within limits) and my reason (with caveats for my ignorances and errors of logic and upset tummy). With those one can get a lead to natural morality (which you evidenced earlier in this thread) and virtues. It was here that CS Lewis began "Right and Wrong as Clue" in his MERE CHRISTIANITY. Interestingly, he was an avowed atheist for a significant part of his life as related in his autobiograph SURPRISED BY JOY. Do you ever have moments when the combination of your senses and your reason lead you to a near-belief state. CS Lewis related such moments, and given your open stance, I thought I'd ask. CIAO!!! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-10-2004 at 01:08 AM.

10-10-2004, 02:26 PM	#85
Mercutio Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Narnia Posts: 1,656	Let me clarify. "God" as in thing with total control. Since you believe in no god (as in supernatural being) don't you consider yourself the highest power in your own world? I hope that's more sense. __________________ Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries.

10-10-2004, 07:57 PM	#86
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Lizra, My second sentence said I understood from your answer that you found reason to be objectively real (existent apart from you) just as you found the world revealed to your senses to be objectively real (existent apart from you). Am I correct in that understanding? My fourth sentence said that people who rely on materialism as a philosophy usually argue that God cannot exist on the basis of that philosophy, but that philosophy has a fatal flaw. Since you do not appear to take that stance as the cause of your atheism, why bore you? (And I'll try to remember that and never bore you with it if my neurons hold onto the thought!) It interests me that you say that the closest moments to belief were moments of strong desire. CS Lewis says what seems to be the same thing. He referred to the experience as JOY and I have understood him to mean the experience of a reality greater than that we usually inhabit which calls us out of ourselves into that greater realm. If you are interested and read the SURPRISED BY JOY referred to earlier, you could compare experiences of desire with those he calls joy. I hasten to add that he had those experiences for years before he became a Deist much less a Christian. So this is not a sneak attack to convert you. The milieu in which CSL and JRRT worked and wrote was in fact highly atheistic. PS Your neurons can't be much older than mine! I'll be 50 next April. Thankfully, I have been reading Tolkein and Inklings for >30 of those years. I really have enjoyed being able to reflect on them with fellow readers, nay, devotees, of many varying backgrounds. It enhances the pleasure!!! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-10-2004, 08:00 PM	#87
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Mercutio.....I try to decide what I will to do, but quite a few decisions are somewhat, if not totally out of my control. Other people's needs might take precedence over mine, or I might only have certain options (if any ) available...so no, Mercutio, that would not be a correct statement for me. Excellent Inked! ...you are older than me! .....I like "older" men! Last edited by Lizra : 10-10-2004 at 08:06 PM.

10-10-2004, 12:44 AM	#82
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Merc...there is no such thing as a "God".

10-10-2004, 01:24 AM	#84
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Inked...I must be frank and say I do not understand the second sentence of your post. It is like reading algebra or something....... The fourth sentence is bouncing off my brain also. I have Mere Christianity on my bookshelf, and I remember thinking it was a pretty good book. The times I have been closest to a "near-belief" state have always been from strong desire....If I can recall these times corectly (questionable for me lately! ) It was/is the senses and reason that have always held me back!

10-10-2004, 08:22 PM	#88
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Lizra, Delighted my age pleases someone besides me!!! You do realize of course that I grew up with the axiom "Never trust anyone over 30"! That means I haven't been able to trust myself for nearly 20 years. But I don't think I'm old - it sneaks up on you 60 seconds to the minute, 60 minutes to the hour, 24 hours to the day, 365 days to the year (except leap years which net your 366 days), 10 years to the decade - more like a fine wine, matured. Or perhaps, a ripe cheese ! It's such a shame you didn't know me when I was younger and KNEW EVERYTHING. If they had only listened to me! ... ! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-11-2004, 08:09 AM	#90
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	So, you want a purpose, it makes living more palatable? I understand that. Last edited by Lizra : 10-11-2004 at 08:13 AM.

10-11-2004, 08:12 AM	#91
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	I am saying that people create a purpose for themselves whereas theistic religion would have you believe that God(s) create that purpose, and impose it on you, sort of an erasion of personal fate, and thus personal individuality Yes, what you said above me! Last edited by Last Child of Ungoliant : 10-11-2004 at 08:36 AM.

10-11-2004, 08:55 AM	#93
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Pardon me, for changing my last post LCoU. I first thought you were Mercutio, and my train of thought was on a slightly different track. I do not accept that there is a preconcieved purpose for my life (as stated by some of the religions I am familiar with) , because I do not believe that there has been any other person who has ever existed that was given "special" knowledge about this world by a supernatural being, to pass on to the rest of us. IMO, this is all wishfull thinking on the part of human beings looking for answers. HUman beings have always loved the idea of super natural beings, mythology has always been around. I believe that this mythology has existed and continues to exist because of this exact "lack of purpose" that you mention. We seem to be very goal oriented! I personnaly have a strong, impossible to deny, requirement that my perceptions of my life must be believable...by me. I have seen much proof in life that human beings will say anything to manipulate and control others (whether with good intentions or bad ) I do not believe in prophets, and I do not believe in miracles. And I cannot believe, without my own self realization being involved, what others say about something as important as "the purpose of my life! ...... Doubting Lizra. Maybe that is because as a young person, I was allowed to come to my own conclusions, and so I base my opinion on my senses and reason. I don't know, it's hard to go back in time ...brain development wise! ) No matter how appealing, I cannot jump on a fictional bandwagon. So...I guess I do not allow myself to indulge in a purpose for life. Wanting, even needing, a purpose for existance does not make it real IMO. If that means I walk around with some kind of "hole in my heart" I am strong enough to deal with/accept it. I cannot enter into a fairy tale. Last edited by Lizra : 10-11-2004 at 09:10 AM.

10-11-2004, 09:03 AM	#95
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Lizra - again, thanks for having the patience to field all those questions! I have the impression we're getting into a lot of repetition though. What do the rest of you think? Time to let Lizra off the 'hot seat'? __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

10-11-2004, 09:04 AM	#96
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	the world was created on the back of an elephant, standing on four turtles, everyone knows that , and the dragons and sea serpents that guard the edges make sure that the boats don't fall off the edge of the world, and the sea stays where it is, i thought all this was common knowledge! seriously though, early civilisation created those stories to fill the holes in their knowledge, I don't honestly think that they were intended to form the basis for reasonable thinking once we had found what we believe to be the answers [i.e; big bang, evolution etc], but if other people want to believe that they are to form the basis for rational thinking, I feel that that is entirely their choice, and I would neither support nor sabotage. (Wow, an intelligent post after lunch - not like me )

10-11-2004, 11:47 AM	#100
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Thanks Nurvingiel. I understand what you are saying.