Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Sorry Rian, I know you only want it to be one person at a time, but perhaps it would be easier to have maybe a couple going, so the discussion doesn't dry up too much?

Comments like yours are welcome (and interesting) IMO - you're commenting on a subject that Lizra is addressing. I'd basically like Lizra (or whoever is in the seat) to be the main focus of the discussion, and side comments are hoped-for and welcome, as long as the focus doesn't shift off the main person and the beliefs they were discussing. And the main person can "reel in" the discussion if he/she feels it has gone too far off what they were discussing.

As my new, updated title shows, I'm a lover of "rabbit trails" in discussions, but I want to keep a general style of one person being the main focus of the interview, while still allowing for comments and thoughts from other people.

[Janny]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Anyway Janny, I think that when we ask Lizra about her views, we shouldn't assume that the mainstream/Christian view is correct. It's really easy to do this thing, so no worries. I just think it will make a better discussion.

In my belated, out-of-time-zone defense: I really didn't mean to assume that Christian views were correct. I only used the 'mainstream' definition of the soul in attempt not to cloud the question with my own beliefs.
As I say, I didn't mean to assume the correctness of one set of views, but I can't produce an aetheist's perspective and questioning of a position, because I don't know what that is.

Sorry Lizra, you're right we do quite clearly exist...

So would you say that religion or desire to look for something deeper in existance is a "need to gussy up and romanticise existance with mythology"?
I know it reads as a loaded question, but I'm just curious.

[Rían]

I'm still deciding on questions for you, Lizra, but I'll comment on your answers -

Originally Posted by Lizra

Millane, I feel my beliefs come more from my reasoning. Yes, I use my senses to gather info, that is what people do, but I use my reasoning to separate fact from fiction, and I go with my realistic conclusion.

I like how you worded that, and describe how the two (senses and reasoning) are related.

My parents ... saw church as a good way to socialize with "nice" people.

This attitude always mystifies me - "come be with the nice people, but they're totally deluded about a really important part of life, so play along with them and try to hide it" ....

But I HAVE gone to churches as an adult, and church people take the believing part very seriously. It would just seem rude and hypocritical to go and fakingly "play along", and I am a *serious* woman anyway.

I much prefer your attitude over your parents' attitude.

Energy is neither made or destroyed, it just shifts around from place to place, right?

No! The universe is slowly and irreversibly dying; the scientists all agree on this. When work (in the physics sense - i.e., anything happening) is done, energy (or "opportunity" to use energy) is lost forever, and the universe is heading towards what is called "heat death", because there will be no energy available to run any processes.

[Rían]

Oh, I did have a question for you (more to come later... ) -

Why did you do drugs? Was it just a short-term test, or did you do them for some time? What age did you start, and what made you stop? (presuming you've stopped ) What would you say to your kids about them doing drugs, and why? (don't answer if you don't want to - I don't care that you used drugs, except I hope it didn't leave you with lasting damage - it doesn't affect my friendship with you at all. I want to learn, tho, and I never did drugs, so I'd like to hear from you.)

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Janny

In my belated, out-of-time-zone defense: I really didn't mean to assume that Christian views were correct.

As I said earlier, you're free to assume your own particular worldview is correct (or else I hope you wouldn't hold it!! ) Lizra is free to assume her beliefs are correct, or I'm sure she wouldn't hold them! Everyone can assume their worldview is correct, but I hope they will honestly and openly consider questions from others and honestly consider changes if they see inconsistencies that can't be reconciled under their current beliefs. This includes me. (and btw, I have changed some of my opinions on homosexuality thru the discussions here)

THIS THREAD, tho, does NOT run under the assumption that Christianity is correct by ANY means. THIS THREAD has no opinion; its participants have many

This has been a public service announcement ... we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Janny

So would you say that religion or desire to look for something deeper in existance is a "need to gussy up and romanticise existance with mythology"?
I know it reads as a loaded question, but I'm just curious.

I'm not sure about "the desire" to look for something deeper, that seems ok to me, I can understand that...but making up (or believing in ) a relgion is over the top for me. So yes, I pretty much see religion as romanticising our existance. I think religions have, and always will exist, because they make people feel good. The thought of going to a heaven type place, for ever and ever, is certainly pleasant, also....the thought that you are here for a special reason/purpose also seems quite nice. Religions give people answers that they can't find, and this makes them feel good. I understand that, but I personally have never been able to "get over" the fact that I think they (religions) are fairy tales...some might have facts hovering about the edges, but the god/heaven/hell/parts strike me as bogus. So....I can't take the religion ride.

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Oh, I did have a question for you (more to come later... ) -

Why did you do drugs? Was it just a short-term test, or did you do them for some time? What age did you start, and what made you stop? (presuming you've stopped ) What would you say to your kids about them doing drugs, and why? (don't answer if you don't want to - I don't care that you used drugs, except I hope it didn't leave you with lasting damage - it doesn't affect my friendship with you at all. I want to learn, tho, and I never did drugs, so I'd like to hear from you.)

Ha hA! quick answer...it was 1971 Rian...you really had to be there! (and not be a little kid) My parents were totally non communicative about much of anything, especially as they were still reeling from the sudden death of their first born. The entire US culture (and Britain too ) was quite immeshed in the drug culture. My friends were smoking pot, doing drugs and having fun, so I joined in. Today, the atmospere is much different, and kids hear about how bad drugs are, and I have no problem talking about the fact that drugs are not a good thing.

Oh yes..I dumped all of the harder srugs after a year or two, but loved marijuana for many years. When I turn 70, I'd like to smoke some again but I am too busy with real life to jump on the escapism band wagon now. Pot is bad for you if you have any kind of goals for yourself. Addictions eat your precious time up .

[inked]

Originally Posted by Lizra

TD, I believe I've (tried) to adress this question in my previous posts.

Boy...I hope INKED shows up! Totally opposite point of veiw from mine, but he has a "way with words"!

Lizra,

I am flattered and intrigued. What is your desire that I should fulfill it, O Swing Babe? - if it be graced to me to be capable?

You seem to be holding your own.

But I do have a question. If you rely on your senses and reason as data sources and capable of meaning, how do you know they are reliable? After all, I can have you blindfolded and feed you apple while holding an onion under your nose and confuse your sense of smell and taste. Artists do it all the time with your sight. We've all answered when no one has called to us and know hearing can be deceived (especially with quality stereo equipment). Somethings are so cold they feel hot. Play pin the tail on the donkey and your proprioception goes haywire. AND those are just the standard sense perceptions, but they are ultimately how we take in data (regardless of the degree of instrumentation used).

or, Why should I trust my senses?

MiLady, I trust that was up to the high level of your flattery!!??!!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Ha hA! quick answer...it was 1971 Rian...you really had to be there! (and not be a little kid)

Hey, I think I"m the same age as you are! (44) And actually I have friends and family that were into drugs.

I just wanted to know more about you, and hear any special reasons why you did it.

Personally, I think pot stinks to high heaven - my next-door dormmates smoked it. Smells like burning stinky gym clothes, IMHO



(BTW, "inked" isn't Blackheart, is he? )

[BeardofPants]

I doubt it. Inked's a goodie. Can't really imagine him purloining virgins, and sacrificing them to cthulhu....

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

An interesting thought and concept, Rian, I will try to explain my viewpoints in an objective manner.

I am a Buddhist, I am also vegetarian and gay, those of you who have posted with me before will know I have strong views on various aspects of life.
I am a Buddhist because I believe that it is the only faith which does bring answers (no offence to anyone intended here), I also believe that we all have certain values that, of all religions, only buddhism upholds. We each have certain norms/values etc, and it is for this reason that I can not criticise any of you for your own beliefs.I believe in re-incarnation, and nirvana, this is because I feel that if we have no way of bettering ourselves, then is there any point to existence? War is something that I am strongly against, and the needless killing of anything, people or animals, although I feel that everyone should have the choice to do as they wish, within reasonable limits, of course! For instance, I don't think we should just go about killing people, so murder would be a limit. Basically, I think that each of us believes what we believe because we feel that it brings some form of stability to our lives, or perhaps an answer or two. Even those that say they do not believe in anything must admit that they believe in life itself, and that certain things are there for a reason, Laws etc. Religion is not necessarily the sole truth, but it can, and does, provide some truths.

There you have my views, if I have offended anyone, please accept my sincerest apologies.

[Nurvingiel]

Are we still asking Lizra stuff or are we asking LCOU (aka Chrys) stuff now?

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by inked

Lizra,

I am flattered and intrigued. What is your desire that I should fulfill it, O Swing Babe? - if it be graced to me to be capable?

You seem to be holding your own.

But I do have a question. If you rely on your senses and reason as data sources and capable of meaning, how do you know they are reliable? After all, I can have you blindfolded and feed you apple while holding an onion under your nose and confuse your sense of smell and taste. Artists do it all the time with your sight. We've all answered when no one has called to us and know hearing can be deceived (especially with quality stereo equipment). Somethings are so cold they feel hot. Play pin the tail on the donkey and your proprioception goes haywire. AND those are just the standard sense perceptions, but they are ultimately how we take in data (regardless of the degree of instrumentation used).

or, Why should I trust my senses?

MiLady, I trust that was up to the high level of your flattery!!??!!

Heh! You are sweet! I trust my senses in the normal, cumulative way most of us do. What can I say, but I have nothing else to trust, and I am confident. I believe I am right! I am comfortable with the "gamble" I have taken. (I don't really believe it is that much of a gamble, but I understand the point you are making....that I could be wrong. )

To me, the the world must be how it appears to be, with no godly slight of hand involved. I do not put THAT much faith into the words of strangers. (The religion creators, and I mean people here, not gods, I don't believe in gods. ) I guess I am just a no nonsense type, AND I have no fear of the the religious stories, because there have been and continue to be many conflicting ones floating around out there. I am not afraid, or paranoid that the "soul police" will get me.

I am waiting to read your eloquent "take" one things.

Rian, I am 48. In 1971, I was a bored out of my gourd, lonely teen, with no family support. I was looking for fun and camaraderie, and found it with my hippie pals. As the seventies wore on, the glow came off the drug culture, but that very early period had many, many people espousing the joys of getting high. Yes, pot does smell like burning trash! My girlfriends and I shrieked with raccous laughter over this fact, the first time we got stoned!

[Shelob's Hubby]

LCOU, where you raised Buddhist? Or did you convert to Buddhism on your own?

Lizra, do you believe that all of the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Vedas, etc. where completely made up by some ancient false-prophet, through legend, or some other way?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

No! The universe is slowly and irreversibly dying; the scientists all agree on this. When work (in the physics sense - i.e., anything happening) is done, energy (or "opportunity" to use energy) is lost forever, and the universe is heading towards what is called "heat death", because there will be no energy available to run any processes.

they don't all agree on this and it is very much a theory... through probably held by the majority at the moment

my beliefs in a nutshell ~

the universe is cyclical, has always been around and always will be... yet there is no intelligence behind it... though intelligence has developed within it... it is something humanity has a hard time grasping, but this may be because we are limited by our senses and our perception of linear time... there may very well be all sorts of things going on that we cannot observe directly... gravitational force being one good example

i'm pretty comfortable with the current scientific views on the earth and the evolution of life upon it... the details may be off here and there... but the general theories of life forms evolving over time... sometimes in small ways, other times with great leaps due to extensive environmental changes seems to work pretty well... all that said, if a better theory comes along, i'd be willing to give it a listen

on religion, i view the world's religions as i do philosophy... an attempt by humanity to understand the world around us... the big "why" question... as such, i have no problem taking various good bits and pieces from the religions around the world and discarding others... basically, i look at what has worked in the past... if certain beliefs have lead to a more peaceful and harmonious human existance, they are positive... other beliefs that tend to divide one group of humanity from another are more negative... i also put a lot of weight on how religious organizations carry out their teachings... almost every faith sounds peachy-keen on paper, but in practice they can get a bit nasty... more often than not, this stems from the need to "convert" people... which, no matter how well-intentioned, has caused many tragic conflicts throughout history... i prefer the religions that just do their own thing and let people find it on their own... i would put buddhism near the top because of this... that said, i am not a buddhist... i just think it's one of the more positive religious philosophies

on god, one can never know, but i'm pretty doubtful... some say that the complexity of our universe requires a creator... to that i say, they very lack of order and reason throughout a great part of our universe points away from there being any possibility of intelligent design behind it... put bluntly, it's just to darn sloppy to imagine some great mind behind it... that said, i won't discard something just because i can't see it... and it may very well be that there is an intelligent force behind it, but this force is not quite as all-knowing, all-powerful and wise as we'd like to believe... maybe we were created in god's image

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Shelob's Hubby

LCOU, where you raised Buddhist? Or did you convert to Buddhism on your own?

Lizra, do you believe that all of the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Vedas, etc. where completely made up by some ancient false-prophet, through legend, or some other way?

Made up by ancient people....yeah! I do! False prophet? Some kind of jargon? Anyway, one good story leads to another!

LCoU...why do you think there is a "point" to existance?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

If you rely on your senses and reason as data sources and capable of meaning, how do you know they are reliable?

*puts on thread starter hat*

As far as this thread goes, I'd like to assume the basic reliability of the senses. Otherwise we get very short discussions, such as:


Person 1 : I look around me and I see such-and-such, so I conclude this-and-that.

Person 2 : Well, but what if your senses are deceiving you?

Person 1 : Well, then, I guess I can't conclude anything ... I'll go sit in a corner and stare at the wall, even tho it might not be a corner or a wall, since I might not be perceiving it right ...



So since conclusions drawn from data is one thing I'd like to address, I'd like to have the basic reliability of the senses assumed in this thread, altho some misunderstanding/misinterpretation can be assumed.

*takes off thread starter hat*

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

they don't all agree on this and it is very much a theory... through probably held by the majority at the moment

Wouldn't you say it's one of the most universally held positions in science? I certainly would - my university physics textbooks (from a technically-oriented, NON-Christian university) had that opinion, and I've never seen any other. Heat death is pretty much universally accepted as an inevitable outcome of this universe.

[Starr Polish]

Originally Posted by inked

But I do have a question. If you rely on your senses and reason as data sources and capable of meaning, how do you know they are reliable?

If you believe in the Reliability Theory of Knowledge (RTK) reliability is an issue, but because you can't see outside what you know, you have no argument for skeptics. But I don't like that theory.

Philosophy is eating my brain!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Are we still asking Lizra stuff or are we asking LCOU (aka Chrys) stuff now?

Lizra is still the one in the seat, altho posts from others are fine, too, because it helps people know where you're coming from when you ask questions. But the main focus stays on Lizra right now, and I'd like to see some more questions come her way.

Here's a few for ya, babe! (and BTW, is the "swing" in "swing babe" referring to the dance, or something else?!)

1. What makes your heart ache, either with joy or sadness?

2. You believe that god/s don't exist. I believe that God exists. If one of us can be shown to be right, would you believe that means that the other is wrong?

3. What makes you angry?

4. As far as Christianity (my own particular worldview ) - are you attracted to it in any way, shape or form whatsoever? Does anything repel you from it, besides the fact that you don't think it's true? Regardless of whether it's true or not, would you like it to be true, or would you prefer it to NOT be true? Why?

5. Are you asleep yet? (I know my posts make you fall asleep! )