Why you believe what you believe I

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Interesting Lizra.

I'm sorry to hear about your loss of your brother... long ago as it was. Those kinds of things can impact us greatly. Do you think your brother's death shaped your beliefs?

No, my point in mentioning his death was that I had a complete sense of "my take" on death, even at that young age. Death being a final thing seemed obvious to me, so it was a sad time, but that's the way things went down. Wasn't much we could do! This life is as good as it gets IMO...do your best to make the most of it!

Gaffer....I do believe in truth, but I'm also fairly sure there are some smaller grey areas, where interpretation and circumstance can come into play. My mind is too crowded with "to do" lists right now to think of any good, clean examples. I'll go with 70% truth, and 30% relative circumstance. I see small grey shawdows around lots of the black and white in the world.

I remember tripping on acid as a teen, and my perceptions WERE totally altered for about half a day...but that did not change the truth that was the same as ever, after the drugs wore off.

I'm with BJ...I DO NOT have a "worldview"!

TD, the reason I feel this way is because of reality. Todays religions seem no different than the Greek or Roman myths. Those *stories* were pretty important stuff in their day...and now, just a bunch of stories.

[Janny]

But to what extent do you exist then, if you merely live and die? How can we enjoy music if we have no soul (I mean soul in a pretty mainstream definition)? It just seems, I don't know, something wrong with being able to tag 'desires and abilities' and stick them down to genes alone.

I don't know if that was a question. If it was I don't if it was rhetorical.

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Janny

But to what extent do you exist then, if you merely live and die? How can we enjoy music if we have no soul (I mean soul in a pretty mainstream definition)? It just seems, I don't know, something wrong with being able to tag 'desires and abilities' and stick them down to genes alone.

I don't know if that was a question. If it was I don't if it was rhetorical.

Janny! How do we exist? I dunno dude, but I'm doing it! "Soul" is just a word! There is all the stuff you do in your life between living and dying. I have no need to gussy up and romanticise my existance with mythology. I have a full, rich, wonderful life, and I'm merely another human being. One of the 70 billion or so that have lived and died on this planet. I am a cognizant, unique life form indeed ....but it all boils down to chemicals an reactions. It's the complexity of life that is so marvelous...not "magic", IMO.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think what Shelob's Hubby means (correct me if I'm wrong) is that some people paint/draw/sing etc from their soul. That's where they get their inspiration and ideas from.

[Lizra]

There is no such thing as a "soul".

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What makes you think that?

[Nurvingiel]

What an interesting thread! I'd love to join in.

Lizra, you explained your point of view very well. I feel like I understand an atheist point of view better now, so thanks! (I personally believe in God.)

This reminds me of a joke:
I grew up in a mixed religion household. My mom was an atheist and my dad was an agnostic. I remember the arguments:
"There is no God."
"There might be."

Anyway Janny, I think that when we ask Lizra about her views, we shouldn't assume that the mainstream/Christian view is correct. It's really easy to do this thing, so no worries. I just think it will make a better discussion.

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

What makes you think that?

TD, I believe I've (tried) to adress this question in my previous posts.

Boy...I hope INKED shows up! Totally opposite point of veiw from mine, but he has a "way with words"!

[Starr Polish]

We must exist because we think we exist. If nothing existed to ask "Do I exist" the question wouldn't be askable. We also exist because we perceive. Now, whether or not what we perceive is truly how things are is where things get tricky.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Millane

i agree just keep it at the one person

Millane says it - so be it!

(I was hoping you'd show up, Millane - I enjoyed a similar talk we had awhile back - you brought up some very intriguing points)

I've just had time for a quick glance at some of these questions and responses, and it looks like such fun! I really like this format of one person at a time, and all of us asking questions from our different perspectives

But I can't ask one yet - I'm off to my son's football game ... Go Lancers!!

(I'll think of some good ones while I"m there)

[Mercutio]

Originally Posted by Shelob's Hubby

How can you explain music and art without a soul?

I believe you mean something like (if not, I'd like to ask this anyway): Are music and art accidents? Is it merely a fortuity that sounds fit together the way they do to create beautiful compositions? Can this be explained just by organic chemistry and biology?

[BeardofPants]

I have to admit, I have difficulty with trying to understand our complexity sometimes, especially when you throw music and art into the equation. I don't think we have a "soul", it all boils down to genetics and chemistry. Music is more easily explained - we are vocal creatures. Sound is, and has been very important to us as both baser animals, and as sentient beings. I think that music has an effect upon humans in much the same way as making love. It appeals to our more primal beings. Something about music works upon the more 'primitive' aspect of humanity. Art is different. Art can appeal to us in an analytical sense, as well as an emotional one, but art is is HARDER to understand than music. You don't get that baser-level response without working at it. I have to say, I have difficulty explaining why art has the affect it does.

Sorry Rian, I know you only want it to be one person at a time, but perhaps it would be easier to have maybe a couple going, so the discussion doesn't dry up too much?

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

I believe you mean something like (if not, I'd like to ask this anyway): Are music and art accidents? Is it merely a fortuity that sounds fit together the way they do to create beautiful compositions? Can this be explained just by organic chemistry and biology?

Nothing is an "accident", especially the chemistry and biology that makes us up. Sounds are sounds....how we fit them together can be called music, and some people have more abilities or desire to learn in this area than others. Sounds fitting together has to do with people listening, thinking about the sounds, and creating...not biology and chemistry. Biology is how our bodies are put together. You seem to be linking apples and oranges.

I have no problem with moving out of the spotlight, but I guess Rian wants to ask me a question...?

[Shelob's Hubby]

Sorry about the confusion. Mercutio explained it pretty well. I meant to say: How can you explain art and music by organic chemistry and evolution alone? Where did our appreciation of aesthetic things come from? We are obviously different (at least IMO) from other intelligent creatures (i.e. dolphins, corvids, apes, etc.) in other ways then intelligence; why is that? Also, the age old question: why is there something instead of nothing?

[Shelob's Hubby]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Nothing is an "accident", especially the chemistry and biology that makes us up. Sounds are sounds....how we fit them together can be called music, and some people have more abilities or desire to learn in this area than others. Sounds fitting together has to do with people listening, thinking about the sounds, and creating...not biology and chemistry. Biology is how our bodies are put together. You seem to be linking apples and oranges.

I still don't understand your explanation fully. Why do people who don't create music and art still like it? Why do I feel love when I listen to certain music? Am I insane? (hmm...it's very possible, but that's beside the point! )

[Starr Polish]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Nothing is an "accident", especially the chemistry and biology that makes us up. Sounds are sounds....how we fit them together can be called music, and some people have more abilities or desire to learn in this area than others. Sounds fitting together has to do with people listening, thinking about the sounds, and creating...not biology and chemistry. Biology is how our bodies are put together. You seem to be linking apples and oranges.

I have no problem with moving out of the spotlight, but I guess Rian wants to ask me a question...?

What about the randomness of quantum physics? Note: I know very little about this science, except that on the quantum level, structures of matter react in impossible to predict movements, ie: completely random. Thus "accidental."

[Lizra]

SH, people like what they like because of their genetic makeup, and life experience. People who don't create music like to listen to it because it pleases them. Ask them why they like it, and you will get different answers...all valid. There are millions of years of genetics and conditioning behind everything we do, and each person is also unique in their own ways. There is no "simple" answer as to why people do and like what they do, but I personally see no reason to make up an invisible, undetectible part of the human body and label it a soul. Sometimes I might use the word "soul" to talk about my individuality, but to me, this is just a figure of speech, not part of anatomy.

Star, I don't know anything about the randomness of quantum physics either. Perhaps there are accidents in this area. I was speaking about human beings, and the things they do and create. SH asked if music and art were accidents...which seems a kind of silly question. I put lots of thought and energy into my art. It is no accident, and comes from my years of painting, drawing, veiwing, and my personnal appreciation of all sorts of visual stimulus and other people's art. Because I am a different person than anyone else, what appeals to me might not be the same as what appeals to someone else, but hopefully I have learned my craft well enough by this time, to have honed it down to something that speaks to my fellow man.

Oh yes...thank you Nurvingiel!

[Linaewen]

It was my belief that every person has a soul that kept me clinging to my Catholic beliefs for a long time, although I simultaneously did not believe in a God. I didn't understand how all the unique personalities of individuals, as well as all the products of human genious (e.g. art and music) could exist if souls didn't. I currently believe in no afterlife- that our energy is "recycled" as Liz put it, and I do think that isn't so bad.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

interesting thread... my beliefs aren't really based on any worldview... more an eclectic mix... but maybe i'll jump in at some point when the major ones have been covered

I don't mean that everyone has to pick an "official" worldview. What I mean by "worldview" is your own personal set of beliefs that drive your actions and convictions. The things you say when people ask you "why did you do such-and-such?" about a moral-type action/decision. That's what I mean, if that makes sense.

if rÃ*an says it's ok

Of course I was hoping you'd show up, too. But don't wait - please jump in with questions! You typically have good ones, IMO.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

What an interesting thread! I'd love to join in.

Great! Another person I was hoping would show up

Anyway Janny, I think that when we ask Lizra about her views, we shouldn't assume that the mainstream/Christian view is correct.

Hmm, how do I say what I'm thinking ... well (as thead starter), I do NOT want this to be a light, fluffy "This is what I believe and I'm not going to think about any valid questions or explain how I got to my beliefs" thread. I am assuming that people hold their worldviews, or their set of beliefs about what is true, BECAUSE they think they're TRUE. I know my worldview differs from some other people's worldviews, and that I have logical problems with some worldviews, and that people have problems with mine. This is a thread where I wanted to be among friends and say "pull up a chair, grab a drink (will the Teacup Cafe cater for us, please? ) and let's have at it! All questions fair game, as long as they are considerate of others. Let's challenge each other to really think and learn!"

So IMO, Janny's question was a perfectly good one - it brought up a point that he considered valid and it was worded in a manner that showed consideration to the person in the "hot seat". That's the type of question I'm after, and I hope to get lots of those type questions from Lizra and others that think my worldview is wrong when it's my turn in the seat.