orcs used to be elfs WOW

rael · 08-19-2006, 07:38 PM

i firmly believe that even though the book says they are elfs tortured beyond normal lines that they would betray there own race thay by all rights should still be good but as j.r.r tolkien based the book on the vietnam war well i think that they were the vietnamise but as i said before on the outlook of the book the elfs would even after being tortured never serve sauron not even if they were bribed profoundly so as i said they cannot be tortured elfs in my opinion but tortured men as we as men have many faults as of course we would turn against our country in the case of supreme torturing

durinsbane2244 · 08-19-2006, 09:18 PM

er....

1. elves.
2. why is this in the hobbit?

Landroval · 08-20-2006, 03:46 AM

The origin of orcs changed over time; some maiar became orcs (cf Myths Transformed, HoME X) and some men too. But orcs appeared long before the coming of Men, so some elves must have been turned into orcs also. I am pretty sure there is some lengthy thread about this around the site.

Concerning their meta-origin, Tolkien confesses about borrowing it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter #144

They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in.

***Earniel*** · 08-20-2006, 05:34 AM

Moved to silmarillion forum.

The Gaffer · 08-21-2006, 04:21 AM

Also, Tolkien had nothing to do with the Vietnam war. He fought in World War I, losing several close friends in the process.

I don't think there's any evidence that orcs are modelled on any particular enemy from any particular war.

GreyMouser · 08-21-2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rael

but as j.r.r tolkien based the book on the vietnam war well i think that they were the vietnamise b

UMMM.....Tolkien started writing LoTR in 1937-38
LoTR first published 1954-1955

First Americans killed in Vietnam- 1959 (military advisors)
US Special Forces Deployed as instructors-1960
First US combat forces -1965

The Gaffer · 08-21-2006, 09:29 AM

Lessons learned: 1975

Subsequently forgotten: 2003

***Valandil*** · 08-21-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Lessons learned: 1975

Subsequently forgotten: 2003

You're one over on each year, Gaff:

Fornost of Arthedain fell to the Witch-King in 1974

Minas Ithil fell to the Witch-King in 2002

double

The Gaffer · 08-22-2006, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

You're one over on each year, Gaff:

Fornost of Arthedain fell to the Witch-King in 1974

Minas Ithil fell to the Witch-King in 2002

double

hehehehe Nice one.

ElemmÃrÃ« · 08-22-2006, 07:40 PM

Nice, Val.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rael

i firmly believe that even though the book says they are elfs tortured beyond normal lines that they would betray there own race thay by all rights should still be good

Trust me, Elves can betray their own race. Most of my favourites did so most splendidly.

Embladyne · 08-22-2006, 08:34 PM

Elves are in no way perfect. Heck, if the Maiar aren't perfect, how can you expect those who are born to be completely without fault?

It makes those who were valiant even more so when their comrades can and have fallen. If they were incapable of evil, then their goodness would serve no purpose and would become meaningless.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 08-22-2006, 09:11 PM

orcs from elves? orcs from men? orcs from maiar? does it really matter? all that matters is that they are great!

Curubethion · 08-22-2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rÃ«

Trust me, Elves can betray their own race. Most of my favourites did so most splendidly.

Yah, can you say "Kinslaying"?

jammi567 · 08-23-2006, 04:33 AM

No, you've got it wrong. It's "kinslayings".

Tulkas · 09-06-2006, 05:43 PM

it is true elves were captured by morgoths servants and taken back to angband...a little bit of this and a little bit of that and you got yourself an army of orcs

Butterbeer · 09-06-2006, 05:47 PM

... you do the okey-cokey,

.. and shake it... all about ...

08-19-2006, 09:18 PM	#2
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	er.... 1. elves. 2. why is this in the hobbit? __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

08-20-2006, 05:34 AM	#4
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Moved to silmarillion forum. __________________ We are not things.

08-22-2006, 08:34 PM	#11
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	Elves are in no way perfect. Heck, if the Maiar aren't perfect, how can you expect those who are born to be completely without fault? It makes those who were valiant even more so when their comrades can and have fallen. If they were incapable of evil, then their goodness would serve no purpose and would become meaningless. __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

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08-19-2006, 07:38 PM	#1
rael Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: hutchinson ks Posts: 34	orcs used to be elfs WOW i firmly believe that even though the book says they are elfs tortured beyond normal lines that they would betray there own race thay by all rights should still be good but as j.r.r tolkien based the book on the vietnam war well i think that they were the vietnamise but as i said before on the outlook of the book the elfs would even after being tortured never serve sauron not even if they were bribed profoundly so as i said they cannot be tortured elfs in my opinion but tortured men as we as men have many faults as of course we would turn against our country in the case of supreme torturing

08-21-2006, 04:21 AM	#5
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Also, Tolkien had nothing to do with the Vietnam war. He fought in World War I, losing several close friends in the process. I don't think there's any evidence that orcs are modelled on any particular enemy from any particular war.

08-21-2006, 09:29 AM	#7
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Lessons learned: 1975 Subsequently forgotten: 2003

08-22-2006, 09:11 PM	#12
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	orcs from elves? orcs from men? orcs from maiar? does it really matter? all that matters is that they are great!

08-23-2006, 04:33 AM	#14
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	No, you've got it wrong. It's "kinslayings". __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

09-06-2006, 05:43 PM	#15
Tulkas Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 32	it is true elves were captured by morgoths servants and taken back to angband...a little bit of this and a little bit of that and you got yourself an army of orcs

09-06-2006, 05:47 PM	#16
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	... you do the okey-cokey, .. and shake it... all about ...