Dwarves: The True Hero's of Tolkien's Works?

Roland · 12-19-2004, 09:35 PM

It is my belief that, if it were not for the Dwarves, the Enemy would have taken The Ring. If Gandalf Had not gone in search of Thorin's father, in the tower of the Necromancer, he would not have not realized that he, the Necromancer was indeed Sauron himself, and Sauron would have been able locate the Ring, and take it.

Wayfarer · 12-20-2004, 12:43 AM

If not for the Dwarves, the Enemy would have indeed conquered Middle Earth.
If not for the Elves, Melkor would have undisputed dominion over the lands beyond Valinor.
If not for Men, the Enemy would have destroyed both the elves and the dwarves, and taken full control of the world.
If not for Hobbits, Sauron would have conquered, and the world would be a much gloomier place.

I won't go so far as to say that, if not for Orcs, Morgoth and Sauron would have been in a better position. But it's an interesting thought.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 12-20-2004, 12:06 PM

Gandalf did not go into Dol Guldur looking for Thrain. The fact that he found him there was meerly a coincidence. He went in to find out who the Necromancer was and to explore his dwelling.

Elemmírë · 12-20-2004, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

I won't go so far as to say that, if not for Orcs, Morgoth and Sauron would have been in a better position. But it's an interesting thought.

Well... they're hardly the most loyal and cooperative servants, methinks. It is an interesting thought.

Wayfarer's got a point... everyone was important, none more or less so than anyone else.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 12-20-2004, 02:35 PM

I wouldn't say that they were the most loyal servants because I'd say that hobbits were, but I also agree with Wayfarer.

BeardofPants · 12-20-2004, 03:35 PM

Oh how boring... everyone's agreeing with the insufferable twit.

How about this: it was all pre-ordained in Ilúvatar's music.... so does that make HIM the True Hero?

Elemmírë · 12-20-2004, 03:49 PM

Or the true villain...

*grumbles*

Wayfarer · 12-20-2004, 04:01 PM

I thought he was just the director of the film.

**Nurvingiel** · 12-28-2004, 10:01 PM

The Quest to reclaim the mountain provided the perfect catalyst for Bilbo to find the Ring, but don't forget that Bilbo wouldn't have been included at all if not for Gandalf. He really pushed Thorin to include him. He basically made him take Bilbo (who proved his worth many times over, even without the Ring).

Is Gandalf then, the true hero of the Hobbit? He is not, because aside from blowing up the odd orc, he doesn't have to do anything. He does not have to overcome personal struggle, as Bilbo does. Bilbo is the main hero of the Hobbit, though Thorin does have a personal struggle as well. I don't think Thorin's struggles make all Dwarves the hero though.

me9996 · 03-20-2005, 01:21 PM

They have their own heroism...
But so does evryone else.

durinsbane2244 · 06-08-2005, 09:20 PM

i think that there is no "true hero", i do agree with the "insufferable twit" wayfarer, everyone together did it.

the dwarves quest, gandalf makes them bring bilbo and saves there hides a few times, bilbo find the ring, frodo destroys it, sam does the sevent bit and help frodo to his last bit of consciousness, and then gandalf comes again, the eagles heroes as well, saving frodo and the dwarves. . . .

Olmer · 06-09-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

How about this: it was all pre-ordained in Ilúvatar's music.... so does that make HIM the True Hero?

Preordinance is not in the end result, but in the direction, and the outcoming of pre-ordinance is greatly depends on the path you taken.

Mouth of the Dark Lord · 01-13-2006, 07:40 AM

Dwarves, ha. They're brave, sturdy, battle savvy... But heroes? I think not. Sure there are heroes among their numbers, but judged as a whole they are just an embodiment of greed and gluttony. They'd count their gold as Men and Elves counted their casualties. Hide and count, yup, 'til someone starts lookin' over their shoulder... Then it's war.

The Gaffer · 01-13-2006, 08:12 AM

Without whom Smaug would have inherited The Ring, along with a nice hors d'oeuvre of toasted hobbit.

Mouth of the Dark Lord · 01-13-2006, 09:36 PM

I didn't say they were useless, simply not the most important of heroes in LoTR. Smaug would not have attained the ring either way, Bilbo would have stayed home had the Dwarves not needed him... Gollum would still have the ring. And the Dwarves had not real contact with Smaug, Bilbo would still have survived... And anyways the whole adventure was over treasure. As I mentioned, and the Dwarves were ready to fight Elves and Men for it... Rather than share.

Olmer · 01-17-2006, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

...Smaug would have inherited The Ring, along with a nice hors d'oeuvre of toasted hobbit.

Maybe it was a General idea from the start .

ElvenLover · 03-02-2006, 10:27 PM

To the Respectable Wayfarer

Ya Know, it does seem like it would have all worked out that way.
Everything would have gone wrong if certain people were not where they were doing what they were doing at a certain time and place.
So...
Maybe you have to think of Tolkien as a sort of "Higher Power" who positioned everyone where they needed to be so that Life on Middle-Earth goes on as it should, with many losses as well as victories.
The Orcs were supposed to be mindless muscle and the Elves and the Dwarves and the Men and anyone else that you can think of was supposed to be there.
So, now it seems that they are all the heroes and arguing over it becomes as mindless as the Orcs themselves, doesn't it?

Thorir Orcbane · 08-04-2009, 01:04 PM

I dont see how they can't be seen as heroes. They deserve more praise than the elves , the half-faery twits.

j/k/ but I dont think elves should be lifted up as much as they are. They seem quite snobby and have their noses in the air too much , so to speak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouth of the Dark Lord

I didn't say they were useless, simply not the most important of heroes in LoTR. Smaug would not have attained the ring either way, Bilbo would have stayed home had the Dwarves not needed him... Gollum would still have the ring. And the Dwarves had not real contact with Smaug, Bilbo would still have survived... And anyways the whole adventure was over treasure. As I mentioned, and the Dwarves were ready to fight Elves and Men for it... Rather than share.

TurinTurambar · 09-27-2009, 05:42 PM

Im going to have to also respectrully disagree with alot of you. and say that its all the elves fault. They shouldnt of made those rings anyways. As for the hobbits they are way overrated and are really useless because gimli could of carried the ring b/c they (the dwarves) have a resistance to that sort of thing. And gimli could of easily taken it and destroyed it since he is unnaffected by the ring. Also keep in mind that Frodo would of been dead if not for the mithril that the dwarves made. The only thing the dwarves couldnt resist was the arkenstone and gold.
Thus if the elves hadnt made all those rings there wouldnt of been a problem.
Also keep in mind that if the elves hadnt made all those rings the witch King wouldnt of been there and thus the hobbits were not needed

Thus you can remove the elves because they helped caused the problem
And the hobbits were really worthless.. gimli could of done it.

So the true heroes are the dwarves and men b/c you cannot do w/o them.

12-19-2004, 09:35 PM	#1
Roland Sapling Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 5	Dwarves: The True Hero's of Tolkien's Works? It is my belief that, if it were not for the Dwarves, the Enemy would have taken The Ring. If Gandalf Had not gone in search of Thorin's father, in the tower of the Necromancer, he would not have not realized that he, the Necromancer was indeed Sauron himself, and Sauron would have been able locate the Ring, and take it.

12-20-2004, 12:43 AM	#2
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	If not for the Dwarves, the Enemy would have indeed conquered Middle Earth. If not for the Elves, Melkor would have undisputed dominion over the lands beyond Valinor. If not for Men, the Enemy would have destroyed both the elves and the dwarves, and taken full control of the world. If not for Hobbits, Sauron would have conquered, and the world would be a much gloomier place. I won't go so far as to say that, if not for Orcs, Morgoth and Sauron would have been in a better position. But it's an interesting thought. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-20-2004, 12:06 PM	#3
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Gandalf did not go into Dol Guldur looking for Thrain. The fact that he found him there was meerly a coincidence. He went in to find out who the Necromancer was and to explore his dwelling. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

12-20-2004, 02:35 PM	#5
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	I wouldn't say that they were the most loyal servants because I'd say that hobbits were, but I also agree with Wayfarer. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

12-20-2004, 03:35 PM	#6
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Oh how boring... everyone's agreeing with the insufferable twit. How about this: it was all pre-ordained in Ilúvatar's music.... so does that make HIM the True Hero? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

12-20-2004, 03:49 PM	#7
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Or the true villain... grumbles __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

12-20-2004, 04:01 PM	#8
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I thought he was just the director of the film. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

06-08-2005, 09:20 PM	#11
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	i think that there is no "true hero", i do agree with the "insufferable twit" wayfarer, everyone together did it. the dwarves quest, gandalf makes them bring bilbo and saves there hides a few times, bilbo find the ring, frodo destroys it, sam does the sevent bit and help frodo to his last bit of consciousness, and then gandalf comes again, the eagles heroes as well, saving frodo and the dwarves. . . . __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

01-13-2006, 07:40 AM	#13
Mouth of the Dark Lord Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 15	Dwarves, ha. They're brave, sturdy, battle savvy... But heroes? I think not. Sure there are heroes among their numbers, but judged as a whole they are just an embodiment of greed and gluttony. They'd count their gold as Men and Elves counted their casualties. Hide and count, yup, 'til someone starts lookin' over their shoulder... Then it's war. __________________ "What funny little birds, they have no wings. Oh, what shall we do with these funny little things?!" -Singing Warg Riders In "The Hobbit" Animated Movie.

01-13-2006, 08:12 AM	#14
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Let's hear it for Thrushes Without whom Smaug would have inherited The Ring, along with a nice hors d'oeuvre of toasted hobbit.

01-13-2006, 09:36 PM	#15
Mouth of the Dark Lord Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 15	I didn't say they were useless, simply not the most important of heroes in LoTR. Smaug would not have attained the ring either way, Bilbo would have stayed home had the Dwarves not needed him... Gollum would still have the ring. And the Dwarves had not real contact with Smaug, Bilbo would still have survived... And anyways the whole adventure was over treasure. As I mentioned, and the Dwarves were ready to fight Elves and Men for it... Rather than share. __________________ "What funny little birds, they have no wings. Oh, what shall we do with these funny little things?!" -Singing Warg Riders In "The Hobbit" Animated Movie.

03-02-2006, 10:27 PM	#17
ElvenLover Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: I'm living in the only place teenagers are neither adults nor children, where we are free from the expectations of the world. This place is the insanity of our minds. Posts: 144	To the Respectable Wayfarer Ya Know, it does seem like it would have all worked out that way. Everything would have gone wrong if certain people were not where they were doing what they were doing at a certain time and place. So... Maybe you have to think of Tolkien as a sort of "Higher Power" who positioned everyone where they needed to be so that Life on Middle-Earth goes on as it should, with many losses as well as victories. The Orcs were supposed to be mindless muscle and the Elves and the Dwarves and the Men and anyone else that you can think of was supposed to be there. So, now it seems that they are all the heroes and arguing over it becomes as mindless as the Orcs themselves, doesn't it? __________________ Maturing Teenager With Lots of Voice I'VE GOT A LOVELY BUNCH OF COCONUTS, THERE THEY ARE ALL STANDING IN A ROW. BIG ONES, SMALL ONES, SOME AS BIG AS YOUR HEAD, GIVE THEM A TWIST, A FLICK OF THE WRIST, THAT'S WHAT THE SHOWMAN SAID. ROLL-A-BOWL-A-BALL, A PENNY A PITCH. ROLL-A-BOWL-A-BALL, A PENNY A PITCH. ROLL-A-BOWL-A-BALL, ROLL-A-BOWL-A-BALL, SINGING ROLL-A-BOWL-A-BALL, A PENNY A PITCH! Last edited by ElvenLover : 03-02-2006 at 10:33 PM.

09-27-2009, 05:42 PM	#19
TurinTurambar Sapling Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	Im going to have to also respectrully disagree with alot of you. and say that its all the elves fault. They shouldnt of made those rings anyways. As for the hobbits they are way overrated and are really useless because gimli could of carried the ring b/c they (the dwarves) have a resistance to that sort of thing. And gimli could of easily taken it and destroyed it since he is unnaffected by the ring. Also keep in mind that Frodo would of been dead if not for the mithril that the dwarves made. The only thing the dwarves couldnt resist was the arkenstone and gold. Thus if the elves hadnt made all those rings there wouldnt of been a problem. Also keep in mind that if the elves hadnt made all those rings the witch King wouldnt of been there and thus the hobbits were not needed Thus you can remove the elves because they helped caused the problem And the hobbits were really worthless.. gimli could of done it. So the true heroes are the dwarves and men b/c you cannot do w/o them. Last edited by TurinTurambar : 09-27-2009 at 06:03 PM.

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