The Hobbit - a story of courage

[Valandil]

I am currently reading The Hobbit to my younger sons, aged 9 and 7 (we're almost done now - just the last two short chapters to go, since I did two last night). I'm really struck by the theme of courage. And not just physical courage (facing Trolls, Goblins, Gollum, spiders and a dragon - but moral courage.

Here is what Bilbo does that is so morally courageous in my mind:
* Sees Thorin's error in dealing with the Men of Laketown and Elves of Mirkwood.
* Makes a plan to resolve the situation and acts upon it.
* Returns to his Dwarf companions after doing so - willing to accept whatever they would do to him, because he has been through so much with them and because he had promised Bombur to wake him at the end of his shift to watch. He still clearly identifies with them - though Thorin, at least, will cease to identify with him for a time.

I hope these lessons sink in with my sons, and that they take this to heart.

[inked]

They will probably do so, Val. They are hearing the right kind of stories to make them men with chests.

Have you read THE ABOLITON OF MAN by CS Lewis?

[Valandil]

No - I have not. I may still own it - part of a boxed set I bought long ago. I've meant to get to it and should soon. Is it about the educational system?

[inked]

It is ostensibly about the education system and does debunk the erroneous paradigms in play.

it is really about being truly human.

[Valandil]

Yes - I'm sure I'd like to read Lewis' take on that.

Back to The Hobbit: it's that last thing I mentioned that really jumped out at me this time. Bilbo has just apparently 'betrayed' the Dwarves - yet he goes back to be with them, when the Elven King points out that he could stay with them and have much acclaim. I think going back and facing them and their certain discovery of what he had done may have been the hardest part to do. It's the part I think I would have the hardest time doing - if I could do it at all. Yet to have stayed would have indicated CLEAR betrayal to the Dwarves - though it was a far easier choice to make. Bilbo still manages to identify with them - to claim a place among them despite how what he has done is apparently 'against' them.

Took a lot of guts. And... was the correct thing to do.

[hectorberlioz]

Val,

Yes! And in the end, Thorin recognizes that Bilbo was not betraying them but was doing the right thing.

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I am currently reading The Hobbit to my younger sons, aged 9 and 7 (we're almost done now - just the last two short chapters to go, since I did two last night). I'm really struck by the theme of courage. And not just physical courage (facing Trolls, Goblins, Gollum, spiders and a dragon - but moral courage.

Here is what Bilbo does that is so morally courageous in my mind:
* Sees Thorin's error in dealing with the Men of Laketown and Elves of Mirkwood.
* Makes a plan to resolve the situation and acts upon it.
* Returns to his Dwarf companions after doing so - willing to accept whatever they would do to him, because he has been through so much with them and because he had promised Bombur to wake him at the end of his shift to watch. He still clearly identifies with them - though Thorin, at least, will cease to identify with him for a time.

I hope these lessons sink in with my sons, and that they take this to heart.

Yes, I agree! And one of my favorite things about Tolkien's works are courageous, etc. but also make mistakes, and so the end becomes everyone's achievement; not just the work of one person.

I know this seems to be very non-Christian way to look at Tolkien's writing; but I think he wrote it more to fit the reality of man's corruption than to be analogous to the Gospel. And we are corrupt, are we not? Tolkien shows the corruption of man, he shows the ability of man to do good, and he shows it in a very real sense; despite the impossible world through which he shows it.

[hectorberlioz]

I think Tolkien wouldn't want us to think of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings as analogous to the Bible. He didn't like metaphors and allegories very much! Says so in the preface to LotR, too

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I think Tolkien wouldn't want us to think of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings as analogous to the Bible. He didn't like metaphors and allegories very much! Says so in the preface to LotR, too

Yes, quote, "I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations."

[Peregrina_Took]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

Yes, quote, "I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations."

I rather hate allegory as well. I like to read a story and enjoy it rather than spend all my time searching for deep life lessons or morals. But of course, that's just my personal preferances.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

YAnd we are corrupt, are we not?

That is if course your opinion. I do not think humanity is corrupt. I think we just "are". But of course, I'm coming at this from an biological perspective, whereas I suspect yours is rooted in faith.

[Rían]

I can see how you could say that 'we just "are" ' from a biological perspective, but are you saying that you think you can say that humanity is not corrupt from a biological perspective, too, or is that just your opinion? It's hard to tell from your wording ... But regardless, I think that the word "corrupt" in the Christian sense means merely "imperfect" (as in we have all made at least one mistake in our lives), and I don't see how anyone could argue with that!

I've grown more fond of the old Hobbit over the years ... it takes such a turn from its beginning ... there are some very complex and messy (therefore realistic!) things in it, and things of sorrow and of beauty. The example of Bilbo's actions with the dwarves is a good one - he thwarted an action of theirs that he saw as wrong, but never betrayed them. I'm SO glad that Tolkien allowed that beautifully-written reconciliation with Thorin ...

I like how there's things with no clear choice of what is right or wrong in the book, too, just like RL. One of the most difficult decisions I've had in my life is the decision to amputate my middle son's feet (there were multiple deformities). The doctors all said that there was really no absolute right or wrong decision. We took a long time about it, and got a lot of opinions and information, and prayed and struggled with it, and finally made our decision to go ahead with it. I think a lot of decisions in life are like that - no real right or wrong, but there's right or wrong in how you go about deciding, and how you deal with the aftermath of the decision.

(and btw, the decision turned out to be the best one, IMO, for some reasons that we couldn't see at the time)

[GrayMouser]

I see where EV's coming from and I agree with her here. "Corrupt' or not can't be judged from a biological point of view, only a moral one. I hasten to add that I think our moral sense is based on our biology, and not on any supernatiral source, but from a moral point of view we are all indeed "fallen" simply in the sense that none of us is perfect- we all fall to the temptations of selfishness, greed, spite, and all the other sins we mortals are prey to.

Specifically on the "non-Christian" thing, Tolkien was writing about the world before the Redeemer- a world where the choices people make have to be based not on revelation but on natural morality- you do what you do because it's the right thing, without hope of salvation or knowledge of redemption.

It's a touch of the old Norse beliefs, without that tacked-on bit about Baldur and rebirth ( probably itself an attempt to respond to Christianity)- you fight on the side of the Gods against the Giants even though you know you're going to lose.

Middle-Earth isn't quite that bleak, of course- they don't know the future, and they do know there are higher powers, even if they seem to have turned away from us.

[GrayMouser]

And Rian, wow- having kids myself, what an incredible decision to face- blessings and best wishes to you and your son.

[Rían]

Thank you, GM - I'm glad that it did seem to turn out for the best. We mainly did it for the potential for prosthetics, but it has had several other good results, too. It's much easier to find clothes that fit, and he is now "walking" on his heel (which was put on the bottom of the leg stump) instead of on the side of his foot, and there's less of the "deformed" stigma for him - he's looked upon as more of an amputee.

But it was SUCH a difficult decision to make ... and one that you can't reverse, obviously. And it was better to do while he was younger, so we couldn't just wait.

[Mark of Cenla]

The actions of Bilbo are both good (the action mentioned at the top) and bad, or at least questionable ("Riddles in the Dark"). What he does after the end of the Battle of the Five Armies is a great moral lesson to what is right, even if it is uncomfortable. We still have moral choices, regardless of one's beliefs. Peace and goodwill.