The ACLU - pros and cons

[Rían]

I thought there was a thread that I had started before on the ACLU, but I can't find it now... SO here's another one, where I'd like to discuss everything about the ACLU, both good and bad.

And to start off, I'd like to call on anyone who is tired of the ACLU's efforts to remove Christmas from the public square to send a Christmas (that's CHRISTMAS, not HOLIDAY) card to the ACLU, with a warm and friendly message written inside

Here's their address:

ACLU
125 Broad Street
New York, NY 10004


I got an email from some friends of mine suggesting this. I think it is a wonderful form of peaceful protest to a group that is throwing lawsuits at communities for celebrating Christmas, a national holiday in our country.

Please, guys, keep it civil, keep it kind - the way a peaceful protest of this type should be - but PASS IT ON! and mail in those Christmas cards!

I'll gather together some examples of Christmas-type ACLU lawsuits by next week and we can discuss them here if anyone wants to, along with any other type of thing that the ACLU is protesting against (there are some good ones, too, IMHO)

[Lotesse]

So its the ACLU who've been making this even a news subject? I keep seeing it on the news about how some extremist grinchies want to force everyone to quit saying Christmas. WHAT POPPYCOCK! It's CHRISTMAS, for crying out loud! December 25 is CHRISTMAS! Whether or not it may have actually been the birthday of some Roman emperor or pagan holiday or whatever, as it stands now it is a CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY as much as Hannukah is a JEWISH holiday and Ramadan an Islamic one. Why can't these grumpy ACLU types get off their self-righteous bandwagon and just leave people to enjoy a goodwill, sparkly, joyful holiday season - SO WHAT if it's a time to celebrate Christ? Christ was actually a tremendous genius and wonderful person whose actions for peace & understanding changed the world, whether or not he was actually the Son of God or whatever, it is THE SEASON to be positive anbd happy, and to share, and celebrate joy & peace and stuff like that.

Freakin' grinches.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And to start off, I'd like to call on anyone who is tired of the ACLU's efforts to remove Christmas from the public square to send a Christmas (that's CHRISTMAS, not HOLIDAY) card to the ACLU, with a warm and friendly message written inside

Lol. That's a GREAT idea. (Writes and sends a letter) Done . Though mine does contain a small argument for keeping Christmas in public places, rather than simply being a greeting. I do the greetings and warm fuzzies too, though . Anyhow, great idea!

What's good about the ACLU: They are Americans who have opinions and care about things that matter. They are not like those Americans who are apathetic about many things and willfully remain dimwitted. Even better, the ACLU is full of people who act upon those opinions! We need people like that badly in our country.

What's bad about the ACLU: Many of the opinions they espouse and argue for, I believe, are wrong. Thus, though they seek to help the American people, they are in many ways hurting them.

Those are my main views. I'm glad that the ACLU is full of intelligent, active people who care. I'm disappointed that they are using their efforts in causes that many times are severely flawed.

[Lotesse]

Ciao, Lief. We cross-posted! Yeah, I've never heard of the ACLU being so silly. I just do not understand this anti-Christmas sentiment, not at all. I think it is taking things way too far. While we're at it, might as well take "In God we trust" off all the money, you know? But it's even way worse than that, saying Christmas shouldn't be Christmas. So ridiculous.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Ciao, Lief. We cross-posted! Yeah, I've never heard of the ACLU being so silly. I just do not understand this anti-Christmas sentiment, not at all. I think it is taking things way too far. While we're at it, might as well take "In God we trust" off all the money, you know? But it's even way worse than that, saying Christmas shouldn't be Christmas. So ridiculous.

There are people who want to remove "In God we trust". The argument I made in my letter was that Christmas and "God" are key roots of our culture. Almost all of our major American speakers of the past have given messages which include God. The attempt to secularize our society completely, turning it into something like France, would be to sever all ties with our roots. It would be to undo what makes America America and to morph us into something else (though I didn't put it in such strong language, in my letter. I was trying to be nice).

I also disapprove strongly of the French decision to ban headscarves from Muslim women. To me, that is a blatant attack on those people's freedom of religion, and quite disgraceful.

[Lotesse]

I must say, on both points you just made there, I quite agree with you, even though I am NOT any longer a Christian. What you're saying makes perfect sense.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

What's good about the ACLU: They are Americans who have opinions and care about things that matter. They are not like those Americans who are apathetic about many things and willfully remain dimwitted. Even better, the ACLU is full of people who act upon those opinions! We need people like that badly in our country.

Good point I agree. And the guy I talked to on the phone today was very pleasant.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And to start off, I'd like to call on anyone who is tired of the ACLU's efforts to remove Christmas from the public square to send a Christmas (that's CHRISTMAS, not HOLIDAY) card to the ACLU

Id be careful of riling up the wackos yet again. It seems a faction of your team has gone to extremes and are actively organizing boycotts of private organizations and private companies who put up only generic "holiday" displays at their stores and such and dont emphasize "Christmas" enough. Ford was the latest example of a company that caved in to this kind of religious pressure. I think thats pretty scary stuff if you ask me. And theyve even gone as far as harassing George Bush himself for sending out PERSONAL greeting cards that they felt werent religious enough. George Bush!! Doesnt this kind of forced dogmatism scare you even a little? Perhaps you would say that its the same on both sides?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Id be careful of riling up the wackos yet again. It seems a faction of your team has gone to extremes and are actively organizing boycotts of private organizations and private companies who put up only generic "holiday" displays at their stores and such and dont emphasize "Christmas" enough. Ford was the latest example of a company that caved in to this kind of religious pressure. I think thats pretty scary stuff if you ask me. And theyve even gone as far as harassing George Bush himself for sending out PERSONAL greeting cards that they felt werent religious enough. George Bush!! Doesnt this kind of forced dogmatism scare you even a little? Perhaps you would say that its the same on both sides?

It seems wrong for people to harass others for not celebrating Christmas in the way they want. This goes for both religious extremists and the ACLU. Some religious people may be harassing people for not being religious enough. The ACLU is harassing people for not being secular enough. There is a midpoint that should be sought . . . and that is for everyone to celebrate Christmas as they want to celebrate it! The removal of the word "Christmas" from public places is a clear rejection of this middle road.

[Insidious Rex]

But if a store wants to put up a sign that says "happy holidays" they shouldnt be the target of hatred by religious extremists. They should just be allowed to do what THEY want to do.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

But if a store wants to put up a sign that says "happy holidays" they shouldnt be the target of hatred by religious extremists. They should just be allowed to do what THEY want to do.

Agreed.

[HOBBIT]

Please don't tell me that you all think that there is a war on Christmas :P I guess I must be imagining all the radio stations playing nothing but christmas songs, all those christmas trees everywhere, and the santa clauses in every mall.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Please don't tell me that you all think that there is a war on Christmas :P I guess I must be imagining all the radio stations playing nothing but christmas songs, all those christmas trees everywhere, and the santa clauses in every mall.

As one BBC News headline was titled, "Lines are drawn in battle over Christmas." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4512156.stm Los Angeles Times notes the same. There is a confrontation going on over this holiday, with some trying to strike the word "Christmas" from public places, replacing it with "happy holidays." I have no difficulty with people saying, "Happy holidays," instead of "Merry Christmas," personally. However, I do have a problem with it the holiday being renamed through legal force, and I have a problem with people not being allowed to set up nativity scenes or sing Christmas carols in public places. I have a problem with legal action being taken to change the word for our national holiday from "Christmas" to "festive", as a few religious minority groups are trying to do.

Here's an interesting article about how Christmas is being attacked in Britain: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

Whether you choose one side or the other, there are two sides: Those who believe the word "Christmas" should be replaced in society with some more all-embracing term, and those who believe "Christmas" should remain as it is.

[Bombadillo]

My town's mayor put's an obnoxiously big "MERRY CHRISTMAS" in bright lights all across the municipal building's front lawn each year, just to be defiant. He's a pretty cool guy. My aunt lives down the block from him and whenever she throws a party he shows up. That's the way it should be.

[The Gaffer]

I was discussing this with a Muslim friend recently and he made the point that no Muslim he knows of would be offended by the use of the word "Christmas". Moreover, he sees the attempts to ban any reference to Christmas as counter-productive, because it is seen as being done in the name of minorities (but, tellingly, not BY them), and therefore stirs up resentment against them. I agree.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Please don't tell me that you all think that there is a war on Christmas :P I guess I must be imagining all the radio stations playing nothing but christmas songs, all those christmas trees everywhere, and the santa clauses in every mall.

you are correct... it is an issue that rises every few generations... centuries ago religion was a very powerful force in much of the western world, politically and personally... it has declined over time and changed from the sole force shaping many people's lives and many government's policies (judeo-christian especially)... this decline brings a counter-reaction from time to time by people who wish to reassert it's influence... "in god we trust" was not always on our currency, but was added by a similar assertion during the civil war times

their is no "war on christianity", only the continued questioning of how religious beliefs should be intwined with public life... the ACLU is an organization that pushes these questions... the reason? because they should be asked, generation to generation, in order to preserve the free, open and tolerant nation we all know and love

on the specifics of something like a "christmas tree"... it's a regional decision, as it should be... there is nothing wrong with people asking their local government to either be secular or to equally recognize all religious symbols in the public realm... it would be crazy to expect that some town in the middle of the US with absolutely no jewish inhabitants display a menorah on their town square... there is also nothing wrong with a very religiously-intermixed city in the US choosing to approach the holiday season more secularly... the choice is up to the people in that particular community

the point is that the question can and should be asked without anyone considering it an "attack"... an real "attack" on our freedoms would be not allowing people to ask these kind of questions if it is something that concerns them

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

you are correct... it is an issue that rises every few generations... centuries ago religion was a very powerful force in much of the western world, politically and personally... it has declined over time and changed from the sole force shaping many people's lives and many government's policies (judeo-christian especially)... this decline brings a counter-reaction from time to time by people who wish to reassert it's influence... "in god we trust" was not always on our currency, but was added by a similar assertion during the civil war times

their is no "war on christianity", only the continued questioning of how religious beliefs should be intwined with public life... the ACLU is an organization that pushes these questions... the reason? because they should be asked, generation to generation, in order to preserve the free, open and tolerant nation we all know and love

on the specifics of something like a "christmas tree"... it's a regional decision, as it should be... there is nothing wrong with people asking their local government to either be secular or to equally recognize all religious symbols in the public realm... it would be crazy to expect that some town in the middle of the US with absolutely no jewish inhabitants display a menorah on their town square... there is also nothing wrong with a very religiously-intermixed city in the US choosing to approach the holiday season more secularly... the choice is up to the people in that particular community

the point is that the question can and should be asked without anyone considering it an "attack"... an real "attack" on our freedoms would be not allowing people to ask these kind of questions if it is something that concerns them

SO WELL SAID, brownjenkins! So well said; hear, hear.

[Bombadillo]

This morning, Donald Trump came on the radio to rant about how everything is "the holidays" now. Apparently, stores had been running ads for "sales on the best holiday trees," as if to satisfy all the Jews looking for Hanukkah trees as well as the Christians looking for Christmas trees. They're clearly Christmas trees and nothing else, at all, ever. Why on Earth would you try to use a "politically correct" euphemism for an exclusively Christmas item? It got me angry because it didn't make any sense. So many people called up the stores to yell at them that they actually changed their ads, and Donald Trump just wanted to stop by the radio station to tell those people how proud he was of them and how stupid were the people behind those ad campaigns.

[Insidious Rex]

Hanukkah trees?

[Bombadillo]

Exactly. It doesn't make sense, but the only logical explanation for their saying "holiday trees" is that they're trying to appeal to every religion. They're not going to be bought for Hanukkah or Kwanza or whatever else though, obviously, so they're logic is dumb and they should just call them "Christmas trees" like they're supposed to and expected to.