Christian themes in Harry Potter?

[Minielin]

Ah, well, I got the general gist of what you were trying to say... once you know one Romance language, you can muddle through interpreting parts of them all. Which is, in a way, your point previously made.

As for the question of whether or not to send this thread on the next great adventure, I personally would leave it at your discretion. I would, of course, love to hear your further analysis, but if you'd rather not, it's all right.

[inked]

Well onward through CoS at least, then, as we are nearly done.

[Nurvingiel]

Wow, nice posting inked.

Alright, I can concede the point that Christian themes may be found in Harry Potter, but I do not think they were put there on purpose by the author.

[inked]

Thank you, Nurv. I convinced brownjenkins on his criteria, and Minielin says it's believable. But you are a hold-out. Is that from some obtuse requirement aside from the author's statement and *ahem* brillliant elucidation of the themes? Or sheer obduracy? or merely an anomaly?

[inked]

When last we left our hero, the serpent had swept the Sorting Hat to Harry in its agony from having its eyes punctured by Fawkes.

It is interesting to note that Harry had realized what was in the mouth of the statue of Slytherin and answering Riddle's call. His response was to back away with eyes tightly shut until he had reached the Chamber wall. Fawkes flies off Harry's shoulder, and Harry is anxious for the lack but didn't think Fawkes would have a chance against the basilisk. Harry attempts to evade the serpent, trips, and falls. He hears the serpent coming and is hit hard and smashed into the wall. He hears hissing and opens his eyes to see what is happening. He sees Fawkes soaring around the head of the serpent and then diving to blind the serpent by puncturing its eye. The serpent turns and Harry sees that both eyes have been punctured. This renders the greatest power of the basilisk impotent!
**************

Interestingly, Fawkes has not been killed by the serpent's eyes! The greatest power of the enemy does not affect Fawkes. This is an inherent power of the phoenix perhaps? But it does mirror the sinless humanity of Christ, the second Adam, over whom Satan, that old serpent, had no claim! Christ noted that no one took his life from him but that he laid it down willingly. Fawkes is apparently immune to the basilisk's stare and unafraid of its fangs as, having blinded the basilisk, he continues to harass the serpent by attacking its scaly nose and "piping his eerie song".
++++++++++++++

Riddle then summons the serpent to attack Harry by smell. Harry realizes his great danger is still present and mutters wildly "Help me, help me, someone - anyone -." In response to the whipping of the snake's tail, the Sorting Hat is thrown in Harry's face. He rams it onto his head while prostrating himself onto the floor to avoid the snake's tail. With hat on head, Harry repeats his plea for help in an interestingly triple italicized manner: "Help me - help me.... Please help me -". The response is a contraction of the hat "as though an invisible hand was squeezing it very tightly." And Harry is hit on the head by a hard, heavy object which - through the stars from the blow of its arrival - he discovers a "gleaming silver sword had appeared inside the hat, its handle glittering with rubies the size of eggs."
***************

Harry's wild mutterings are very much like a prayer. And it is answered in a most unlikely manner! The enemy, the basilisk sweeps the Sorting Hat into Harry's face! O felix culpa one might say. Or, "all things work together for the good of those that are the called of the Lord." It is a very Christian characteristic that one's suffering can be turned to good when willing submitted to and voluntarily attached to that of Jesus! It is the very method of God to bring good out of evil! Having put on the hat in the position of repentance Harry repeats his plea (prayer) in a triple plea (a Trinitarian formulation of both the Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, Kyrie eleison and the standard prayers to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit).

The serpent as an emblem of the Adversary is embedded from Genesis to Revelation in Christian Bible imagery. And the promise or prophecy from Genesis through Revelation is that the serpent will be crushed, though the heel of the Crusher shall be bruised. So it is very interesting that the imagery of St Paul speaking of the Christian's armor in Christ includes the helmut of salvation and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God). At this point Harry is armed with the emblem of his salvation provided by Fawkes (the helmut) and by claiming it while prostrating himself (visual imagery of repentance), Harry is provided with a sword (silver, as compared to Fawkes golden "sword-like" beak) with rubies the size of eggs (which is a curious detail in color -rubies are thought of as blood red usually- and eggs are usually thought of in connection with birds and new life). This latter visually corresponds to the "sword of the Spirit" imagery of St Paul and that of Revelation when the triumphant Christ returns!

The visual picture then is of a believing person who claims the offered salvation, whose inability to conquer sin has been overcome by the intervention of Christ, and who when facing further attack, is strengthened by the Holy Spirit (phoenix song, remember) and given the means of self-defence and fighting off the enemy - the recurrent attacks of the blinded basilisk and its fangs - with the word of God/the blood of Christ/the hope of glory!

The imagery will bear the interpretation without violence to the story or the context, without twisting or bending the classic images used! A very symbolic rendering which need not be seen at all, but which is very plain to the initiated!
+++++++++++++

to be continued...

[Nurvingiel]

Your eloquent and detailed arguments have convinced me that Christian themes do exist in Harry Potter, but unless JKR says she put them there purposefully as Christian (rather than cultural, as I think was her intent) themes, then that's as far as I will extend.

Christianity is part of Western Culture, and there are also a lot of interesting Christian myths/tales/symbology writers may draw upon (as well as other sources).

But I still don't think JKR expressively put Christian themes in her books.

[inked]

Ah, Nurv, another life goal achieved ... partially. If we are no longer in contact via the 'Moot when the 7th book comes out and JKR makes whatever comments that shall validate or invalidate my contention, think fondly of the move from denial to admission on this thread. "The old codger was..." .

[inked]

Our hero, HP, is now equipped with a sword with a handle glittering with rubies the size of eggs. Riddle sends the now blinded basilisk after him, for even though impotent of its death-on-sight powers, the Adversary still retains its fangs and venom and bulk. Harry is now standing and ready. The basilisk lunges blindly and Harry dodges. It lunges again, missing Harry, but locating him with its tongue. Harry raises the sword, and as the beast lunges for him, Harry aims the sword and throws his whole weight behind it, driving it into the roof of the serpent's mouth. The blood drenches down Harry's arms.
Harry feels a searing pain as one fang sinks into his arm and splinters off there as the basilisk keels over dead and twitching. Harry slides down the wall and wrenches the fang out of his arm. The pain spreads and now Harry's own blood is soaking his robe. Even as he drops the fang and watches his own blood soaking his robes, his vision goes foggy. The Chamber is fading, but Harry sees a patch of scarlet go past and hears the clatter of claws as Fawkes lands beside him. Harry identifies his Comforter, "Fawkes...You were fantastic, Fawkes." He feels Fawkes lay his head upon the wound.
*****************

The sword calls to mind St Paul's description of the Sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; and rubies are blood red, recalling Another's blood; and eggs symbolize hope and new life traditionally. So Harry, now fully equipped and armed, stands. St Paul says, "having put on the full armor of God, therefore, stand" - and St Peter advises, "Resist the devil." Harry standing can avoid the first two strikes of the basilisk, and on the third strike is not merely ready, but rises to meet the enemy with all his force, throwing all his weight behind the sword. The sword pierces the serpent's palate to the hilt.
The blood of the serpent drenches Harry's arms and he feels the searing pain as one fang pierces his arm. There is no guarantee of safety in this opposition to the serpent ("You shall crush its head and it shall bruise your heel" as the oldest prophecy and promise had it in Genesis; or "Take up your cross and follow me" as the Prophesied One bespoke!). Harry's strength is exhausted, his own blood flows over his robes soaking them, and his vision fails and the Chamber blurs. Harry is giving himself to save Ginny and his own life in deed ("Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.").
But even in his deathly state, Harry perceives the scarlet of Fawkes and hears him land beside him ("Lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world"), and feels Fawkes' place his head on the wound. The evocation of the presence of the Saviour is impossible to miss for the instructed Christian (and Stephen looking up as they stoned him saw Jesus at the right hand of the Father and said, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge").
++++++++++++++++++++

Harry hears footsteps and Riddle's voice proclaiming his own triumph: "You're dead, Harry Potter. Dead. Even Dumbledore's bird knows it. Do you see what he's doing, Potter? He's crying." Harry blinks and sees vaguely Fawke's thick, pearly tears trickling down. Gloatingly Riddle taunts Harry, "I'm going to sit here and watch you die, Harry Potter. Take your time. I'm in no hurry."
Harry is now feeling drowsy and everything around him seemed to be spinning. "So ends the famous Harry Potter. Alone in the Chamber of Secrets, forsaken by his friends, defeated at last by the Dark Lord he so unwisely challenged. You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry.... She bought you twelve years of borrowed time...but Lord Voldemort got you in the end, as you knew he must...." Harry notes that dying isn't so bad, if that is what he was doing, and that even the pain was leaving him. He then realizes his vision is clear and Fawkes head is resting on the healed and absent wound.
*****************
Harry's vision is obscured but he is comforted by Fawkes presence. Even in the midst of Riddle's taunts (and they reverbrate amazingly with those of the unrepentant thief on the cross beside Jesus), Harry focuses on Fawkes and pays little heed to Riddle's taunts. Indeed, amazingly for Harry, the mention of his friends and mother seems to make no impression, but this seems to be due to his awareness that he is not dying. His recovery is signalled by his shaking his head (which is the physical signal for refusal) as though rejecting even the hearing of his enemy! and certainly all that he had been taunting Harry with in so far as it had penetrated Harry's perception.
+++++++++++++++++

Riddle then orders Fawkes away and points Harry's wand towards Fawkes:
"there was bang like a gun, and Fawkes took flight again in a whirl of gold and scarlet." Riddle recalls the healing powers of phoenix tears, but says it "makes no difference. In fact, I prefer it this way. Just you and me, Harry Potter...you and me...." Riddle raises his wand - then, "in a rush of wings, Fawkes had soared overhead and drops the diary into Harry's lap." The two opponents face each other staring at the diary, when Harry "without thinking, without considering, as though he had meant to do it all along", grabs the broken basilisk fang and plunges it into the heart of the book.
*****************
Here again Evil Triumphant symbolized by Riddle forgets the Deep Magic from beyond his origin and the phoenix tears obliterate the poison and even the very wound of evil (sin). Too late to allow the evil to kill Harry, Riddle realizes his mistake and attempts to drive away Harry's savior. Though pointing the wand at Fawkes, it is not clear that Riddle casts a spell or succeeds for there is a loud sound ("a bang like a gun") and Fawkes apparently flies off. Did the sound come form the wand/Riddle or from Fawkes? Evil, again assuming triumph intends to kill Harry saying "just you and me, Harry" and raises the wand, when Fawkes flies over and drops the diary (the source of Riddle's derivative, secondary existence!) into Harry's lap.
Harry, in perfect union of his redeemed body and intent, stabs the diary with the basilisk fang. Gilderoy Lockhart is not the only derivative person to be impaled on his own sword, to borrow Dumbledore's later phrase! Riddle is impaled on his basilisk's fang! Just as Voldemort's curse rebounded onto him, so Riddle's poison emissary is his undoing! (Can we all say, "Eucatastrophe"?)

continued...

[inked]

continuation...

Riddle then orders Fawkes away and points Harry's wand towards Fawkes:
"there was bang like a gun, and Fawkes took flight again in a whirl of gold and scarlet." Riddle recalls the healing powers of phoenix tears, but says it "makes no difference. In fact, I prefer it this way. Just you and me, Harry Potter...you and me...." Riddle raises his wand - then, "in a rush of wings, Fawkes had soared overhead and drops the diary into Harry's lap." The two opponents face each other staring at the diary, when Harry "without thinking, without considering, as though he had meant to do it all along", grabs the broken basilisk fang and plunges it into the heart of the book.
*****************
Here again Evil Triumphant symbolized by Riddle forgets the Deep Magic from beyond his origin and the phoenix tears obliterate the poison and even the very wound of evil (sin). Too late to allow the evil to kill Harry, Riddle realizes his mistake and attempts to drive away Harry's savior. Though pointing the wand at Fawkes, it is not clear that Riddle casts a spell or succeeds for there is a loud sound ("a bang like a gun") and Fawkes apparently flies off. Did the sound come form the wand/Riddle or from Fawkes? Evil, again assuming triumph intends to kill Harry saying "just you and me, Harry" and raises the wand, when Fawkes flies over and drops the diary (the source of Riddle's derivative, secondary existence!) into Harry's lap.
Harry, in perfect union of his redeemed body and intent, stabs the diary with the basilisk fang. Gilderoy Lockhart is not the only derivative person to be impaled on his own sword, to borrow Dumbledore's later phrase! Riddle is impaled on his basilisk's fang! Just as Voldemort's curse rebounded onto him, so Riddle's poison emissary is his undoing! (Can we all say, "Eucatastrophe"?)

But it is important to note that Harry's training in opposition to Voldemort from Sorceror's Stone and his recent valiant battle with the basilisk have prepared him to do what needs be done and, "without thought, without considering, as though he had meant to do it all along" he executes unflinchingly the destruction of the source of evil. Fawkes has delivered him, redeemed him, and given him the opportunity, but Harry in the unity of his being destroys the very source of his enemy. Harry who has determined to do the right, remained faithful, stood in the armor provided and expended his life's blood to defeat Riddle's emissary the basilisk, suffered greatly, and been redeemed by Fawkes tears ("by His stripes we are healed") and strengthened and made whole ("we who have died with Him shall rise with Him"), does out of his whole self to destroy evil and does so in perfect harmony within himself because he has become one with his intent. This is ultimate moment to which the defeat of the basilisk was penultimate. The believer may defeat the sin in his life, but until the Enemy is completely obliterated in the unity of his being by the believer's will/mind/body in concerted obedience, the source of temptation is not gone. Harry, knowing that Riddle intends his complete and permanent destruction without quarter, gives no quarter and seizes the very means of his own destruction, the basilisk fang, to destroy the source.
+++++++++++++++++++

"There was a long, dreadful, piercing scream. Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents.... Riddle was...gone." Harry's wand falls to the floor with a clatter. Harry retrieves the wand, the Sorting Hat, and the sword from the roof of the basilisk's mouth. Harry hears Ginny moan and hurries to her. She confesses her part in the opening of the Chamber. Harry reassures her by showing her the punctured diary and saying "Riddle's finished. Look! Him and the basilisk.
C'mon, Ginny, let's get out of here - ".
*******************

So passes Riddle, the very memory of evil. Harry is free. Ginny is free. Harry is careful to take with him the objects symbolizing his unity of person: wand, Sorting Hat, sword. The final rescue of all these things and Harry, Ginny, Ron, and Gilderoy Lockhart is accomplished by Fawkes who carries them from the tunnel, up the shaft, back to Hogwarts and the girls bathroom whence it all started.

[inked]

Fawkes swoops throught the gap in the rockfall that Ron has made. Then, emitting a golden glow in the darkness, Fawkes leads the trio of Harry, Ron and Ginny back to the pipe. Gilderoy is waiting there. Fawkes flutters in front of Harry and Ron gets the idea that they are to hold onto Fawkes, but protests that it won't work. Harry says, "Fawkes isn't an ordinary bird." He then instructs the others to hold onto each other and him. Then he takes hold of Fawkes "strangely hot tail feathers" and experiences an "extraordinary lightness...spread through his whole body" before "in a rush of wings, they were flying upward". After a brief talk with Moaning Myrtle, when Ron asks, "Where now?", Harry pointed to Fawkes. "Fawkes was leading the way, glowing gold along the corridor" to Professor McGonagall's office. Harry knocks and pushes open the door. ..."Fawkes went whooshing past Harry's ear and settled on Dubledore's shoulder...."
Then after explanations involving "Fawke's timely arrival and about the Sorting Hat giving him the sword" Harry is alone with Dumbledore. "First of all Harry, I want to thank you,' said Dumbledore, eyes twinkling again. 'You must have shown me real loyalty down in the Chamber. Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you.' He stroked the phoenix, which had fluttered down on to his knee. Harry grinned awkwardly as Dumbledore watched him."
******************

Fawkes leads and lifts and restores not only Harry, Ginny, and Ron, but also Lockhart. And his care and concern take them to family and friends, to love and concern and care and understanding, deserved and undeserved (Lockhart). Having accomplished this mission, Fawkes returns to Dumbeldore and perches on his shoulder - whooshing past Harry's ear in the process. Another trinity of Dumbledore, Fawkes, and sound. The promise of Jesus is clearly fulfilled in Fawkes: he is the firstborn from the dead, unique, a very present help in trouble, sends comfort (sound, sight, physical sensation), aid (hat, sword, flight), and brings the buried back to light and life in his train. This being accomplished, Fawkes returns to Dumbledore amidst the whooshing of wings (wind). So Harry as Everyman in the morality play, and as a little Christ (Christ - ian), has been saved by the Son through the gift of the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit. And based on that obedience and response in Harry, has extended that saving grace to Ginny, Ron, and even Lockhart, and restored that which was lost to its proper place (Ginny and Ron to Mr and Mrs Weasley, Lockhart to further care and rehabilitation, and Harry to the presence of Dumbledore). Rather a picture of the action of grace flowing from God through the Church to the whole world not only in Christ, but also in the believer to his situation in the world. The only one's who cannot be saved are those who refuse salvation for their own desire (Riddle, the basilisk, Voldemort). Harry's awkward grin in response to Dumbledore's accolade surely mirrors that of any saint who hears the Divine accolade, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, enter into the joy prepared for you!" And, in fact one could argue that Dumbledore's arranging for a feast in celebration has marked Eucharistic overtones, so I do! The life which Harry has won is to be shared among all Hogwarts!

So ends Fawkes role in the Chamber of Secrets!

But, as all potteranians know, that is not the end of either the story or Fawkes!

(And I can not resist to add that Harry continues the mission in very face of the opposition in the threats and person of Lucius Malfoy by arranging to impale Lucius on his own sword of Riddle's diary and free Dobby in the process - clearly a concommitant of Harry's experience in the Chamber and a foretaste of the ultimate end which Harry shall make!)

to be continued rather later than sooner!

[inked]

*bump*

any interest in continuing?

[hectorberlioz]

So if all these are christian themes, then how on earth was there such a squabble when the books first came out? Not indicating a christian theme or pagan theme when the books were first released is understandable from the author, who probably didnt want to cause any commotion if she could help it. But after bieng nagged to near death, wouldnt she finally say something about the themes bieng christian?

I certainly didnt read this whole thread, and Inked, perhaps you are just relating what You found to be christian themes? I'm confused.

[inked]

HB,

Perhaps if you just read the first three pages or so you see where the various considerations come into play.

I freely admitted that my reading was personal and subjective.

I also document what I believe are clear statements from the author and clear references to the issue, while acknowledging that all British literature has in some sense been Christian (or in contention with the Christian) since around 500 AD.

The initial brouhaha from markedly limited individuals in regard to the function of literature (literally and figuratively, I may emphasize) is, in fact, nearly identical to simialr complaints against Lewis in TCON and Tolkien in LOTR. It stems from a misunderstanding of FAERIE on the part of concretalist literalists of various stripes: some narrowly Christian and some narrowly cultural.

But...I hopefully have demonstrated the believability of my position. If you would care to see my take on Philip Pullman's stuff from a similar analysis of the author's statements see SF-Fandom. I am an equal opportunity remark-er in this matter.
http://sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/showt...ight=Materials
My comments begin at post #10 in the thread.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by inked

And, though we may wish to debate the precision of the parallels, who else do you know of who has prophecies of advent and ineluctable vanquishings, signs in the heavens, and an internationally recognized holiday around natal events - not to mention attempted murder by a ruler with reduction to refugee status and "father" stand-in? who was raised in obscurity though with reports of interesting events in childhood? who begins life work after a heavenly accolade and water-event? Whose opposition is Dursley-ish in its wilful blindness and militantly destructive of a perceived threat?

Jesus . However, I disagree with you about Harry Potter having Christian parallels that J.K. Rowling intended. The best evidence of this that can be looked to is the fact that many more people are becoming interested in witchcraft as a result of Harry Potter then have become interested in Christianity as a result. This is one way in which the work is very definitely different from those of J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.

I don't remember a heavenly accolade and water-event involving Harry. Not sure what you're referring to there. Prophecies of advent are to be found in Robert Jordan's books too, which are very definitely non-Christian. I think they're pretty frequent amongst fantasy books. Prophecies of ineluctable vanquishings are more steady in Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" then in J.K. Rowlings books, for there at least it said that the main character would win. Robert Jordan has the same thing in terms of early on assassination attempts, as has Terry Brooks. Terry Brooks also had the father stand-in. Both had the "flight to Egypt", the necessity of fleeing as a result of enemy aggression because of the "Messianic" qualities of the main character. The interesting events in childhood has been used by almost every fantasy writer I've ever read from, and the miracle type things that Harry experiences are common to every person in the wizarding world. The fact is that these kinds of things that you point out in J.K. Rowlings' books are very common in fantasy in general. Many of those fantasy books are extremely blatant in their anti-Christianity themes. Yes, they can be incorporated in Christianity. But remember, "by their fruit you shall know them." That is key to this matter. The influence upon the youth of our world that I can see from Harry Potter is more toward acceptance of magic then focus toward Christianity. Whereas with C.S. Lewis I've heard stories of the kid in bed telling the parent about the obvious parallels to Christianity, and the parent being surprised and delighted, with Harry Potter I believe the youth's reaction is a general growth in acceptance and tolerance of witchcraft.

Numerous fantasy writers use plot threads that involve things that Christians also accept. Sometimes the Christian parallels are purposeful, though often they aren't. Sometimes in the midst of even the closest Christian parallels (such as the very blatant ones in Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time") there is a negative message underneath. Negative from a Christian worldview, I mean.

[inked]

Well, Lief, you certainly may take that stance. I think it is in error. CS Lewis and Tolkien both were chastised in the same manner. JK Rowling is doing the same thing as they did. Lewis was more overt than Tolkien. I place JKR in the mid-range betwixt them.

The contention that persons are interested in witchcraft or Satanism as a result of HP is bunk. Plain simple bunk. IMHO. You may choose to think that, but I really must ask on what basis? I do not think that Lewis or Tolkien have altar-calls to their credit in the conventional sense. Their work is intended to be a preparatio evangelium. But see THE ABOLITION OF MAN for Lewis' thinking on this line, and Tolkien's ON FAIRY STORIES for his. I suspect that later in her career JKR may have similar essays or tomes. But her series is in progress and not a finished work which decades of reflection have been possible for! I like to think I'm ahead of the curve or at least in the vanguard here. And I agree that by their fruit ye shall know them. I just think you need to see the sprouts, growth, flowers, buds, and full-formed fruit before rushing to judgement. That has been alas the attitude of many persons in the Christian groupings, generally the one's opposed to Halloween...I think, but that's purely personal opinion!

Prophetic anticipations will of necessity have the same appearances. So the similarities are unavoidable regardless of the particular author. I note the whole Merlin/Arthur in this regard in addition to those you cite. Shakespeare uses the motif, doesn't he? Certainly Lewis and Tolkien! That there should be similarities is unavoidable because of the common humanity of the authors and readers. And, in this regard, it is important to remember that prophecy is primarily forth-telling rather than prediction (though both aspects are present in various degrees)!

The heavenly accolade of letters and the water imagery of the island hide-away where the Dursley's sought to avoid them with Harry are what I was refering to in my prior note. Not that there isn't a tinge of old Jonah and Nineveh in that as well!

You might check out www.hogwartsprofessor.com and the articles there for a evaluation. Also, I highly recommend John Granger's LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER (which is in the same series as LOOKING FOR GOD IN LOTR and by the same publisher). I particularly recommend the essay on "Harry Potter is a Hobbit" though it is lengthy. It will reward reading many times over.

You know that truism about a prophet in their own country uttered by Jesus?
Same thing here!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by inked

Well, Lief, you certainly may take that stance. I think it is in error. CS Lewis and Tolkien both were chastised in the same manner. JK Rowling is doing the same thing as they did. Lewis was more overt than Tolkien. I place JKR in the mid-range betwixt them.

Look, Inked . . . just because some true Christians were killed in the persecutions of Christian vs. heretic does not mean some real heretics were not killed! Not that that was right, of course. If CS Lewis is chastised, that doesn't mean that Tolkien's theology is on target. If Tolkien and Lewis are chastised, that doesn't mean that JK Rowling's work is theologically sound.

Originally Posted by inked

The contention that persons are interested in witchcraft or Satanism as a result of HP is bunk. Plain simple bunk. IMHO. You may choose to think that, but I really must ask on what basis? I do not think that Lewis or Tolkien have altar-calls to their credit in the conventional sense. Their work is intended to be a preparatio evangelium. But see THE ABOLITION OF MAN for Lewis' thinking on this line, and Tolkien's ON FAIRY STORIES for his. I suspect that later in her career JKR may have similar essays or tomes.

Perhaps. I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere that she was a self proclaimed witch, but I'll obviously have to do some digging and find links before I can use that as an evidence . . . as for the article you posted, there are two problems with it that I can immediately see. A third came to mind as I was reviewing this part of my post .

1# Rowling never indicates in the article that she's referring to Christianity when she says she believes in God. Most people do believe in a God. It's just that a lot of people have very divergent views about God.

2# If she's trying to keep her theological views private, why did she expose them to the article's writer? She's defeating her own goal of secrecy.

3# If she did claim to be a Christian, I bet the news would be everywhere.

Originally Posted by inked

But her series is in progress and not a finished work which decades of reflection have been possible for! I like to think I'm ahead of the curve or at least in the vanguard here. And I agree that by their fruit ye shall know them. I just think you need to see the sprouts, growth, flowers, buds, and full-formed fruit before rushing to judgement. That has been alas the attitude of many persons in the Christian groupings, generally the one's opposed to Halloween...I think, but that's purely personal opinion!

Well Inked, I don't want to really go off topic into Halloween. I would just briefly note though that I cannot get through a Halloween without reading on CNN or some other news site about police shooting teenagers, or teenagers attacking one another, or some such occurrence. It always seems to end in blood for someone, and I haven't found it to be the same for any others of our yearly celebrations. Halloween also is about everything that we would consider evil and non-Christian-witches, ghosts, monsters-everything that is part of our worst fears. I know that almost everyone involved in Halloween is entirely innocent of bad intention. Did people who involved themselves in pagan festivals in the past have any bad intentions? Not that I am convinced it is quite that big a problem . . . I'm largely posting this to be argumentative; I still have to decide how fully I believe it. Except the noting about CNN or news sites. I do always seem to find myself hearing those kinds of reports from news sites about things that have happened on Halloween.

Anyway, I don't mean to divert the thread . . .

Originally Posted by inked

Prophetic anticipations will of necessity have the same appearances. So the similarities are unavoidable regardless of the particular author. I note the whole Merlin/Arthur in this regard in addition to those you cite. Shakespeare uses the motif, doesn't he? Certainly Lewis and Tolkien! That there should be similarities is unavoidable because of the common humanity of the authors and readers. And, in this regard, it is important to remember that prophecy is primarily forth-telling rather than prediction (though both aspects are present in various degrees)!

My argument was that "everyone does this." You seem to be agreeing, "everyone does." Hence my point: J.K. Rowling is no different in this regard from many non-Christian fantasy writers, so there is no reason to believe she did it with Christian intent.

Originally Posted by inked

The heavenly accolade of letters

And the shepherds threw Jesus out of the cradle!

Originally Posted by inked

and the water imagery of the island hide-away where the Dursley's sought to avoid them with Harry are what I was refering to in my prior note. Not that there isn't a tinge of old Jonah and Nineveh in that as well!

I agree, Jonah running away on the sea is much closer to what was going on there then Jesus with his baptism. One must take the different circumstances very much out of context in order to get them to resemble the Biblical accounts.

Originally Posted by inked

You might check out www.hogwartsprofessor.com and the articles there for a evaluation. Also, I highly recommend John Granger's LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER (which is in the same series as LOOKING FOR GOD IN LOTR and by the same publisher). I particularly recommend the essay on "Harry Potter is a Hobbit" though it is lengthy. It will reward reading many times over.

You know that truism about a prophet in their own country uttered by Jesus?
Same thing here!

Why is it that all of the different real groups involved in witchcraft have praised J.K. Rowling, and claimed that she represents their groups very well?

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Perhaps. I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere that she was a self proclaimed witch, but I'll obviously have to do some digging and find links before I can use that as an evidence . .

She's never said that. It's one of the claims which people who are anti-HP have made to support their argument, but you won't find an actual quote of JK Rowling saying that.

as for the article you posted, there are two problems with it that I can immediately see. A third came to mind as I was reviewing this part of my post .

1# Rowling never indicates in the article that she's referring to Christianity when she says she believes in God. Most people do believe in a God. It's just that a lot of people have very divergent views about God.

2# If she's trying to keep her theological views private, why did she expose them to the article's writer? She's defeating her own goal of secrecy.

3# If she did claim to be a Christian, I bet the news would be everywhere.

She has mentioned her beliefs in other articles than the ones inked posted. This one, for example (it's right at the end). She talks about going to church "more than weddings and christenings", not believing in magic, and having some problems with organised religion. It's not a stunning statement of belief, but neither is it a profession of witchcraft and a mission to undermine Christianity. I think the truth must be somewhere between the two extremes.

I don't see why the news of her religion would be everywhere, or even why it would be news at all. The religious controversy has only been a small part of the news stories surrounding HP, and is probably of little interest to most of her readers. The media are not always keen to report such stories, either.

Why is it that all of the different real groups involved in witchcraft have praised J.K. Rowling, and claimed that she represents their groups very well?

Because they get publicity by doing so.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by sun-star

I don't see why the news of her religion would be everywhere, or even why it would be news at all. The religious controversy has only been a small part of the news stories surrounding HP, and is probably of little interest to most of her readers. The media are not always keen to report such stories, either.

Oh, I agree that it wouldn't be all over the media. However, I think it would at least come up. Also, I would expect to find it in some of the different sites that involve the religious controversy. I would expect to find Christians saying, "though she claims to be a Christian, in reality . . ." I haven't seen that at all.

The religious controversy also I believe is more widespread then you give it credit for being. It is widespread.

[sun-star]

In the US, perhaps.


EDIT: Here's a couple more interview quotes from Rowling on witchcraft:

Couric (interviewer):some religious groups have gone as far as saying the novels are potentially harmful and promote occultism.

Rowling: “I think that’s utter garbage. I absolutely do not believe in the occult, practice the occult. I’ve never… I’ve met literally thousands of children now. Not one of them has said to me you’ve really turned me on to the occult, not one of them... I am being accused of something quite horrible. So of course I’ve got to defend myself.”

Couric: “What do you believe in? I’m just curious about your belief system — God, heaven?”

Rowling: “Well, I do believe in God.”

Couric: “You do?”

Rowling: “Yeah, which I’ve said before, but that just seems to annoy them even more.”

Source

JKR: They [Christian critics of HP] are absolutely entitled to express their point of view, as am I, and long may that continue. See I believe in God, but that just seems to incense them even more. I say that because I think they would prefer to see me as an unrepentant heathen. I don’t have strong feelings one way or the other, let them protest, they have the absolute right to do that. I think they’re deeply misguided, but the trouble is, [sighs] I don’t think they really want to hear what I’ve got to say, so there’s no point, probably, in us having a debate.

Source

JKR: I don't believe in witchcraft. Though I've lost count of the number of times I've been told I'm a practicing witch. Nine...ty... let's say ninety-five percent, at least, of the magic in the books, is entirely invented by me. And I've used things from folklore, and I've used bits of what people used to believe worked, magically, just to add a certain flavor -- but I've always twisted them to suit my own ends; I mean I've taken liberties with folklore to suit my plot. Witches and wizards are a huge part of children's literature, it'll never go away. I don't think it will ever ever ever go away. Hundred years, two hundred years' time there'll be another kind of wizard story.

Source

...The promise of teenage romance in future books is likely to further inflame the anger of those who argue that Rowling's bestsellers are already unsuitable for children for their portrayal of the supernatural. Members of the Christ Community Church, in Alamogordo, New Mexico, are planning a mass Potter book-burning for Sunday evening, claiming that the stories are an "abomination to God". According to the Church's pastor, Jack Brock, "Harry Potter books are going to destroy the lives of young people. These books encourage our youth to learn more about witches, warlocks, and sorcerers..."

Rowling has dismissed such criticisms, claiming: "I have met thousands of children and not even one time has a child come up to me and said, 'Ms Rowling, I'm so glad I've read these books because now I want to be a witch."

Source

There are more, but I won't bore you with them!

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks for the links, Sun-star. I won't pursue the claim about her being a witch any further. I believe what J.K. Rowling said. She says she's not a witch. I believe her.