Why not Snape?

[Rían]

Lol!

[sun-star]

I think that's the only way to explain it

[inked]

sunstar, is the only sign of repentance and reformation niceness? Dante, after all, had a pretty long interlude of failing Beatrice and it took heavenly intervention and trip through Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven to get him on the right road at the last. There was even the interlude of unfaithfulness with which Beatrice flogs him at the top of the Mount before Lethe that he may suffer the pangs of his choices.

Just asking!

[sun-star]

I'm not expecting niceness, but refraining from deliberate cruelty would be a start!

[inked]

sun-star, you sure are asking a lot of a mere convert to love.

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

So, I haven't been here in while, but when I came back this was the first forum I checked. It is most definently my fav.

Anyway, Snape dislikes Harry because he looks just like James. So, he associates Harry even more with James who was deliberatly cruel to him and sees Harry as a representation for everything he lost. Also, I think a lot of his cruelty may have had something to do with Snape wanting all of the children to be better at magic, in essence, better at surviving Voldemort. That's just my little theory, and I only came up with it once I found out that Snape was on the Order's side. I tend to think the best of Snape. However, at his very end I think we did see Snape being as kind as he could. He risked Voldemort's extreme dipleasure by constantly asking to be allowed to go back into battle, to, we can assume, give Harry Dumbldore's last message. Going from the end of the book to the beginning, Snape tried to help George. Instead of letting George die, Snape tried to stop the Death Eater, it just happened to go wrong. Snape is still mean, and could definently be nicer...and I agree, for the most part, that Snape is a horrible person, but I think he did try, and that's what counts.

Going back to why he never got the job, I always assumed that Dumbldore didn't want him to get it because he believed that it was cursed. Again, just my little theory.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

However, at his very end I think we did see Snape being as kind as he could. He risked Voldemort's extreme dipleasure by constantly asking to be allowed to go back into battle, to, we can assume, give Harry Dumbldore's last message. Going from the end of the book to the beginning, Snape tried to help George. Instead of letting George die, Snape tried to stop the Death Eater, it just happened to go wrong. Snape is still mean, and could definently be nicer...and I agree, for the most part, that Snape is a horrible person, but I think he did try, and that's what counts.

That's a good point. He did change in the end, and that does deserve admiration whatever his motives.

inked, I guess I'm just too much of a romantic . I've been reading A Tale of Two Cities and Snape comes off rather poorly in the unrequited love/sacrifice stakes next to Sydney Carton

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by sun-star

but I respect Snape less now that we know he was on the good side mainly because of a rather creepy schoolboy crush.

Exactly! Well, I've always thought Rowling knew nothing about children, but here she's proved conclusively that she knows nothing about adults, either. Good Lord. The Maury Povitch production staff has to scour the population to come up with 30 year olds who still have something to prove to people who tormented them in Middle School, but she has several at the center of what we laughingly refer to as the "plot."

Snape hates Harry because of James, but he's willing to kill himself for Lily. Sure. Dumbledore gets an idea at 15 with his buddy that controls his behavior for 80 years. Tom Riddle comes back from the dead, more or less, so he can give the finger to his schoolmates. Don't any of these folks ever "get a life"?

The grown-ups I know aren't like that, honestly. Many of them can't even remember people they dated in High-school, much less ones in school with them earlier. Other concerns intervene. Even people with actual horror in their past (like Holocaust survivors) go on to new ideas.

I also thought Snape's memories in the Pensieve, while interesting, were written in an uncharacteristically clumsy way for JKR. Everything was explained in one big information dump, conveniently providing all the answers in neat consecutive order. Disappointingly unimaginative.

Absolutely characteristic, I'd say. She drags in a device when she needs it, and discards it when she doesn't. She's written 7 books that pose as mysteries, but doesn't respect any mystery conventions.

[inked]

Originally Posted by sun-star

That's a good point. He did change in the end, and that does deserve admiration whatever his motives.

inked, I guess I'm just too much of a romantic . I've been reading A Tale of Two Cities and Snape comes off rather poorly in the unrequited love/sacrifice stakes next to Sydney Carton

Carlton? Sydney Carlton?

You might enjoy this thread: http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126
It's called UNREQUITED LOVE and you have to admit, that's a Romantic title!


I do disagree with you and SaCaA about Snape. And about the memory dump. One of those was guaranteed by the importance of the Pensieve in the later books. Perhaps if Snape had died more slowly so as to allow Harry to have several interludes you both would be happier? Or would you have preferred Snape hid them like Horcruxes or Deathly Hallows to be discovered and utilized at leisure?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Snape hates Harry because of James, but he's willing to kill himself for Lily. Sure. Dumbledore gets an idea at 15 with his buddy that controls his behavior for 80 years. Tom Riddle comes back from the dead, more or less, so he can give the finger to his schoolmates. Don't any of these folks ever "get a life"?

The grown-ups I know aren't like that, honestly. Many of them can't even remember people they dated in High-school, much less ones in school with them earlier. Other concerns intervene. Even people with actual horror in their past (like Holocaust survivors) go on to new ideas.

Good to know!

I can finally stop worrying about that kid, who's chair I pulled out from under him in fifth grade as a thoughtless schoolboy prank, coming back to terrorize me and my family when I least expect it.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by inked

Carlton? Sydney Carlton?

You might enjoy this thread: http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126
It's called UNREQUITED LOVE and you have to admit, that's a Romantic title!


I do disagree with you and SaCaA about Snape. And about the memory dump. One of those was guaranteed by the importance of the Pensieve in the later books. Perhaps if Snape had died more slowly so as to allow Harry to have several interludes you both would be happier? Or would you have preferred Snape hid them like Horcruxes or Deathly Hallows to be discovered and utilized at leisure?

No - "Harry Potter and the Quest for Snape's Memories" would have seriously irritated me! I suppose I should be glad they were all confined to one chapter .

I would have preferred Snape's story to be presented in a less linear, straightforward manner - with some gaps, some things left unexplained. These are supposed to be memories, not a tidy little biopic of Severus Snape! I know it was the last book and JKR was running out of time to wrap up an important plot, but she's usually very good at backstory - Prisoner of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire are both brilliant in this respect, and the latter even uses the Pensieve in a more interesting way than Deathly Hallows did. So I expected a bit more. But it was the only disappointing element in a book I otherwise loved.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Good to know!

I can finally stop worrying about that kid, who's chair I pulled out from under him in fifth grade as a thoughtless schoolboy prank, coming back to terrorize me and my family when I least expect it.

Glad to be of help.

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Originally Posted by sun-star

...and the latter even uses the Pensieve in a more interesting way than Deathly Hallows did.

I dunno...didn't we find out almost everything we needed to know about Neville in that one singular event? Granted, it wasn't as long Snape's memories. But I relate the two in my mind through that.

My only problem with how Snape's story ended is that I feel like she put so much effort into making him an interesting character. One we suspected and despised but still wondered about his and what could make him so devilishly evil, then we find out "The Truth About Severus Snape"! It was so....already done. I mean, how many other stories out there (or subplots if you'd rather) are about a man who loses the 'love of his life', changes sides or personalities, and ends up scarificing themselves for the ultimate good? I liked Snape, and the glimpes we got of him were very vibrant, but I thought that his actual story was very flat.

As far as things happening in the past that can control your behavior for a very long time, I have to disagree, SaCaA. Dumbldore saw himself as a monster, could have possibly killed his sister, had to take down his friend (who subsequently wasted away in a prison), alienated his brother, and later in life, saw signs of his formal self in a man that would become known as Lord Voldemort. Yes, I do believe that that could affect him for 80 years.
Voldemort was a maniac and didn't come back from the dead to give the finger to his roommates. He had a crazy idea, a messed up childhood, probably DNA that had already scrapped the bottom of the gene pool barrel several times, and a mass following. I'd even come back from the dead for that.
The Snape one...well....I sort of agree there. But, I could see it happening. (I'm also a hopeless romantic...so I tend to lean toward the side of "anything for love"...which makes me very biased)

[katya]

Little Severus and school-age Severus were probably pretty lonely... And it seemed like he was pretty close with Lily, "best friends" and such for a bit, not like he was just admiring her from afar. And it's not like he was the best socially adjusted boy ever either; he's kind of screwed up anyway. I can see him being obsessive about Lily just like with the dark arts.

[inked]

Here is a SUPERB essay on Snape. You simply must go and read it in its entirety: http://rexluscus.livejournal.com/254445.html

Plus, over at hogwartsprofessor.com there is an excellent initiation of discussion on the correlation of Dante and Rowling (a point I have argued here before). You should check that out as well.

Happy Harrying!

[Nurvingiel]

Wow, that was a great essay Inked! Thanks.