Christian themes in Harry Potter? - Page 6

sun-star · 08-06-2007, 05:19 PM

Originality is overrated, IMO

inked · 08-13-2007, 11:12 PM

Originality... seems to me both Tolkien and Lewis had a great deal to say on the subject. And JK Rowling obviously listened very well to them and heard them and is thus original.

For the true lack of originality, you should read Christopher Hitchens' review in the NYT (New York Times):
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/bo...in&oref=slogin

Here's my review of his review:

inked Says:

August 12th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Aye. No brainer here. I mean, of course, the author of the review. If his extant knowledge of the forms he deprecates is to be understood from this review, I should judge it from the very shallow end of the brain pool, putting it charitably as one may. Alternatively, he bares an ignorance that is very nearly invincible when he compares a patronus to a daemon. And his knowledge of the current Pope’s lack of pronouncement on the series reveals less than a journalistic flare for investigation (that is being more than charitable, I must add).

In short, CH condemns what he hasn’t bothered to read thoroughly, much less attempted to understand. That’s what I glean from the review. I do have a certain feeling for his proclivities and antipathies which are unrelated to the series. Not having read his other works, I must trust my decades long experience in reading reviews and works to guide my appreciation of his “review”: shallow end of the pool altogether. No smashingly brilliant work here. He even managed to work President Bush into the text. Charmingly, stupidly naively obvious - I trust he has a day job to pay the bills.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++

See, I don't put such a large store by "originality"!

brownjenkins · 08-15-2007, 11:20 AM

No piece of written word is "original". Everything expressed by humans is completely a result of past influence, going back further than the written word itself.

When people say a book is "original", all they really are saying is that the ideas expressed were new to them, or presented in a way they had not experienced before.

Like all else, it's a relative judgement.

inked · 08-16-2007, 09:55 PM

That's original, BJ, "it's all relative". Nice to see you haven't lost your charm or your single note response to the entire human experience!

so, what do you think now that Deathly Hallows is done, if you have finished it?

I was right was I not?

brownjenkins · 08-16-2007, 10:20 PM

I actually decided to start reading the series just a week ago. I've seen all the movies and read the first book to my kids, but never read the rest. I'm only on book one, but it's a start.

inked · 08-17-2007, 05:51 PM

You are in for a very enjoyable read, BJ. Have fun!!

(Then we can talk...)

hectorberlioz · 08-17-2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

(Then we can talk...)

You forgot the cracking knuckles part

inked · 10-20-2007, 12:28 AM

Here's the proof from the authoress' own ruby red lips that BJ has sooo longed for, and I am delighted to provide it.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/157...17/index.jhtml

'Harry Potter' Author J.K. Rowling Opens Up About Books' Christian Imagery

'They almost epitomize the whole series,' she says of the Scripture Harry reads in Godric's Hollow.

That would be:

The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. I Corinthians 15:26

Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21 (the article has it incorrectly as 6:19)

Nurvingiel, I await your remarks as well

!

inked · 10-20-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Minielin's post in HP vs. LOTR made me wonder... are there any Christian themes in Harry Potter?

Personally, the Harry Potter books have a distincly secular feel to me.

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments Minielin?

relevant article and website. Personally I think he's reading into it a liiiittle too much in this article.

EDIT: I did do a search, but I don't think the other threads that touch on this subjects are about this particular thought.

Ah, Nurv, Nurv, Nurv! I finally get to say "I told you so!"

It does feel good, too!

and for your further reading pleasure: http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=196#more-196

Lotesse · 10-20-2007, 03:53 AM

O.K., told-ya-so smarmy pants guy, so, that means homosexuality is cool with Christians? Is being gay a Christian theme? I should hope so, if by your rationale J.K. Rowling meant for a christian theme in her Harry Potter novels, because she's just revealed that Dumbledore is gay, and has been in love with Grindelwald for years. "Falling in love can blind us to an extent," Rowling said of Dumbledore's feelings, adding that Dumbledore was "horribly, terribly let down."

Hmm. So, gay is a christian theme, now? AWESOME! Very cool.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...OvV-AD8SCM5HO2

Unless - I'm a bit confused, here - were you trying to say that the Harry Potter novels DID have a Christian theme, or did not? Sometimes your posts are confusing; having to sift through all the heavy-duty insulting sarcasm and multitude of biased blog-links, it can get to be quite a chore trying to figure out exactly just what point you might be wishing to make, Inked.

Rowling, finishing a brief "Open Book Tour" of the United States, her first tour here since 2000, also said that she regarded her Potter books as a "prolonged argument for tolerance" and urged her fans to "question authority."
Not everyone likes her work, Rowling said, likely referring to Christian groups that have alleged the books promote witchcraft. Her news about Dumbledore, she said, will give them one more reason.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...OvV-AD8SCM5HO2

b.banner · 10-20-2007, 03:12 PM

very dumb thing for her to say. After Deathly Hallows i hated Dumbledore, i mean i never really liked him from Sorcerers Stone but the Deathly Hallows really made me dislike him.

BeardofPants · 10-20-2007, 03:22 PM

Really? Deathly Hallows, IMO, rounded his character nicely - he was no longer a one-dimensional character - he was FLAWED. Like other humans, in fact.

edit: flawed in the making mistakes sense, not the being gay sense.

Pytt · 10-21-2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Really? Deathly Hallows, IMO, rounded his character nicely - he was no longer a one-dimensional character - he was FLAWED. Like other humans, in fact.

edit: flawed in the making mistakes sense, not the being gay sense.

Midway through Deathly Hallows I started to dislike Dumbledore, but when I ended it I think I liked him more than ever. It's like you said, the flaws, made him more human and therefor more enjoyable! And I think he being gay is kind of cool, it adds more depth to Dumbledore in my book.

Lief Erikson · 10-21-2007, 02:06 PM

J.K. Rowling just recently said that the major theme of her books is acceptance and tolerance. That would apparently go for homosexuals as well as for wizards and witches. The "tolerance" message is also clearly indicated in J.K. Rowling's attacks on racism through Professor Umbridge and the Death Eaters, and her position on prejudice as displayed through the Dursleys (toward witches and wizards).

Now that J.K. Rowling has stated that increasing acceptance and tolerance was one of her primary themes in the series, it really is pretty obvious, looking back. I should have seen it earlier.

And according to BBC News, there has been a surge in the number of young people practicing witchcraft since the Harry Potter books came out. So apparently a lot of people have been influenced into becoming more accepting in that direction.

I'm just glad that J.K. Rowling's perspective on homosexuality is not made explicit in the books. I can still read them and not get that message, which will enable me to better put what Rowling said out of my mind and continue to enjoy the books.

I am completely fine with Rowling's attack on racism- racism is a terrible wrong. But the rest of her tolerance message is very disappointing.

inked · 10-29-2007, 06:48 PM

Gee, missed this thread for a week!

Lotesse, HP is still a Christian themed series. It is a tolerance-themed series. And I think Dumbledore who has no canonical evidence for being homosexual does not negate the themes! Besides, who can argue with a celibate homosexual who does not act on his same-sex attractions? (That's a very traditional Christian manner of dealing with same-sex attractions, by the way!) See also the dumbledore is gay thread.

Well, this guy can argue with it: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...675622,00.html

So, what do you think?

AceKnight · 11-04-2007, 08:02 PM

Nope....but a lota gay ones...

brownjenkins · 11-04-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

And I think Dumbledore who has no canonical evidence for being homosexual does not negate the themes!

If only we could all be judged just upon canonical evidence.

inked · 11-04-2007, 11:09 PM

But we shall be, BJ, we shall be. I would really like to tie in the "four last things" which I think are so clearly presented in DEATHLY HALLOWS, but I am not sure that you have read the book, so I hesitate to ruin your forthcoming joyous completion of the series.

But I will say that it is clear that once the period has been put to the tale of life for each one of us, there is a Reader Who shall indeed judge the canon we have made. I am grateful there is Mercy, for mere Justice will not suffice!

inked · 04-04-2008, 12:02 PM

Here's JKR's full interview and well worth the read, I must say!

http://www.adeelamini.com/JKR/ESTE01...inicom_JKR.pdf

08-06-2007, 05:19 PM	#101
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	Originality is overrated, IMO __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

08-13-2007, 11:12 PM	#102
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Originality... seems to me both Tolkien and Lewis had a great deal to say on the subject. And JK Rowling obviously listened very well to them and heard them and is thus original. For the true lack of originality, you should read Christopher Hitchens' review in the NYT (New York Times): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/bo...in&oref=slogin Here's my review of his review: inked Says: August 12th, 2007 at 7:41 pm Aye. No brainer here. I mean, of course, the author of the review. If his extant knowledge of the forms he deprecates is to be understood from this review, I should judge it from the very shallow end of the brain pool, putting it charitably as one may. Alternatively, he bares an ignorance that is very nearly invincible when he compares a patronus to a daemon. And his knowledge of the current Pope’s lack of pronouncement on the series reveals less than a journalistic flare for investigation (that is being more than charitable, I must add). In short, CH condemns what he hasn’t bothered to read thoroughly, much less attempted to understand. That’s what I glean from the review. I do have a certain feeling for his proclivities and antipathies which are unrelated to the series. Not having read his other works, I must trust my decades long experience in reading reviews and works to guide my appreciation of his “review”: shallow end of the pool altogether. No smashingly brilliant work here. He even managed to work President Bush into the text. Charmingly, stupidly naively obvious - I trust he has a day job to pay the bills. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++ See, I don't put such a large store by "originality"! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

08-15-2007, 11:20 AM	#103
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	No piece of written word is "original". Everything expressed by humans is completely a result of past influence, going back further than the written word itself. When people say a book is "original", all they really are saying is that the ideas expressed were new to them, or presented in a way they had not experienced before. Like all else, it's a relative judgement. __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

08-16-2007, 09:55 PM	#104
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	That's original, BJ, "it's all relative". Nice to see you haven't lost your charm or your single note response to the entire human experience! so, what do you think now that Deathly Hallows is done, if you have finished it? I was right was I not? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

08-16-2007, 10:20 PM	#105
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	I actually decided to start reading the series just a week ago. I've seen all the movies and read the first book to my kids, but never read the rest. I'm only on book one, but it's a start. __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

08-17-2007, 05:51 PM	#106
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	You are in for a very enjoyable read, BJ. Have fun!! (Then we can talk...) __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-20-2007, 12:28 AM	#108
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Here's the proof from the authoress' own ruby red lips that BJ has sooo longed for, and I am delighted to provide it. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/157...17/index.jhtml 'Harry Potter' Author J.K. Rowling Opens Up About Books' Christian Imagery 'They almost epitomize the whole series,' she says of the Scripture Harry reads in Godric's Hollow. That would be: The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. I Corinthians 15:26 Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21 (the article has it incorrectly as 6:19) Nurvingiel, I await your remarks as well ! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-20-2007, 03:53 AM	#110
Lotesse of the House of Fëanor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,150	O.K., told-ya-so smarmy pants guy, so, that means homosexuality is cool with Christians? Is being gay a Christian theme? I should hope so, if by your rationale J.K. Rowling meant for a christian theme in her Harry Potter novels, because she's just revealed that Dumbledore is gay, and has been in love with Grindelwald for years. "Falling in love can blind us to an extent," Rowling said of Dumbledore's feelings, adding that Dumbledore was "horribly, terribly let down." Hmm. So, gay is a christian theme, now? AWESOME! Very cool. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...OvV-AD8SCM5HO2 Unless - I'm a bit confused, here - were you trying to say that the Harry Potter novels DID have a Christian theme, or did not? Sometimes your posts are confusing; having to sift through all the heavy-duty insulting sarcasm and multitude of biased blog-links, it can get to be quite a chore trying to figure out exactly just what point you might be wishing to make, Inked. Rowling, finishing a brief "Open Book Tour" of the United States, her first tour here since 2000, also said that she regarded her Potter books as a "prolonged argument for tolerance" and urged her fans to "question authority." Not everyone likes her work, Rowling said, likely referring to Christian groups that have alleged the books promote witchcraft. Her news about Dumbledore, she said, will give them one more reason. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...OvV-AD8SCM5HO2 __________________ Few people have the imagination for reality. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 10-20-2007 at 03:54 AM.

10-20-2007, 03:12 PM	#111
b.banner Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Trying to keep a hold on my temper so I don't turn into a big green guy. Posts: 572	very dumb thing for her to say. After Deathly Hallows i hated Dumbledore, i mean i never really liked him from Sorcerers Stone but the Deathly Hallows really made me dislike him. __________________ "We are going to tickle some Aes Sedai under the chin, rescue a mule, and put a snip-nosed girl on the Lion Throne. Oh, yes. That's Aviendha. Don't look at her cross-wise or she'll try to cut your throat and probably slit her own by mistake."-Mat Cauthon from Wheel of Time "Don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...."-Dr. Bruce Banner HULK BATMAN THE FLASH

10-20-2007, 03:22 PM	#112
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Really? Deathly Hallows, IMO, rounded his character nicely - he was no longer a one-dimensional character - he was FLAWED. Like other humans, in fact. edit: flawed in the making mistakes sense, not the being gay sense. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 10-20-2007 at 03:23 PM.

10-21-2007, 02:06 PM	#114
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	J.K. Rowling just recently said that the major theme of her books is acceptance and tolerance. That would apparently go for homosexuals as well as for wizards and witches. The "tolerance" message is also clearly indicated in J.K. Rowling's attacks on racism through Professor Umbridge and the Death Eaters, and her position on prejudice as displayed through the Dursleys (toward witches and wizards). Now that J.K. Rowling has stated that increasing acceptance and tolerance was one of her primary themes in the series, it really is pretty obvious, looking back. I should have seen it earlier. And according to BBC News, there has been a surge in the number of young people practicing witchcraft since the Harry Potter books came out. So apparently a lot of people have been influenced into becoming more accepting in that direction. I'm just glad that J.K. Rowling's perspective on homosexuality is not made explicit in the books. I can still read them and not get that message, which will enable me to better put what Rowling said out of my mind and continue to enjoy the books. I am completely fine with Rowling's attack on racism- racism is a terrible wrong. But the rest of her tolerance message is very disappointing. __________________ If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-21-2007 at 02:13 PM.

10-29-2007, 06:48 PM	#115
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Gee, missed this thread for a week! Lotesse, HP is still a Christian themed series. It is a tolerance-themed series. And I think Dumbledore who has no canonical evidence for being homosexual does not negate the themes! Besides, who can argue with a celibate homosexual who does not act on his same-sex attractions? (That's a very traditional Christian manner of dealing with same-sex attractions, by the way!) See also the dumbledore is gay thread. Well, this guy can argue with it: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...675622,00.html So, what do you think? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

11-04-2007, 08:02 PM	#116
AceKnight Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 28	Nope....but a lota gay ones... __________________ Adventures are nasty things;make you late for dinner!

11-04-2007, 11:09 PM	#118
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	But we shall be, BJ, we shall be. I would really like to tie in the "four last things" which I think are so clearly presented in DEATHLY HALLOWS, but I am not sure that you have read the book, so I hesitate to ruin your forthcoming joyous completion of the series. But I will say that it is clear that once the period has been put to the tale of life for each one of us, there is a Reader Who shall indeed judge the canon we have made. I am grateful there is Mercy, for mere Justice will not suffice! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 11-04-2007 at 11:10 PM.

04-04-2008, 12:02 PM	#119
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Here's JKR's full interview and well worth the read, I must say! http://www.adeelamini.com/JKR/ESTE01...inicom_JKR.pdf __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

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