Is Harry dead?

[Sween]

I have recentally been mouching round a few Harry Potter sites (you do reach a point where you have had or seen allmost every possiable tolkien disccussion after all) and have stumbled across a very intresting site. Now i wont go in for advertising because the Mod's would just hate that but there is sections of this site that are very good in particular the atricals now some of these are pointless mussings (much like many of my threads) but this one artical intrested me greatly> Go have a read then come back to the thread

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/...s/tdom02.shtml !

now it is important that you read all of the artical but to me this all makes sence. From the obscure like to a film about someone called Harry to all the sly little clues (be them clues or not) i mean there is a few quotes that make you think that they have also missed one out where ron says something about Harry been an extra connected ghost!

i personally think that book 7 will infact have its Ending at Godorics Hollow (quite how they will get that far back in time i dont know, about 7000 turns on the old time turner should do it) but if im right then this theory could easily come into play

[sirigorn]

Wow, that's really intresting... there was something I thought of as I was reading that that made me dispute it, but I can't remember now. But there's something else about the prophecy.

"And either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives" -- Sybill Trelawney, OoTP, pp. 841 (US)

Obviously, they both are alive. (or not, considering the essay) So.... if neither can live while the other survive, neither could be alive now. I think that they could both share a single life. Voldemort could somehow take that life from Harry, and therefore win, or it could go the other way around. If we take that literally, niether could be alive now.

Oh, yeah, I remember. If Harry is walking around with Voldie's soul in him, wouldn't he be a Slytherin/evil/not who he is now?

[inked]

Entertaining speculations, I admit. I prefer the one by John Granger in either THE HIDDEN KEY TO HARRY POTTER (if you can find that) or LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER (published June, 2004).

check out www.hogwartsprofessor.com for some related topics, particularly the article on doppelgangers.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by sirigorn

Oh, yeah, I remember. If Harry is walking around with Voldie's soul in him, wouldn't he be a Slytherin/evil/not who he is now?

Well, let's think about it. Harry's a parselmouth (that's the word, right?). His wand and Voldemort's are the only two with Fawke's feathers. The Sorting Hat considered putting him into Slytherin anyway...


I'm sure there's a lot more, but it's been a while since I read the books and would be lucky to have spelled the names correctly...

As for being evil, I don't believe this itself is necessary. Harry certainly has the capacity for evil (I believe with saw it at the end of Book 5 when he tried to use the Cruciatus curse, if I remember correctly). Whether or not he yields to it is yet to be seen. Likewise, Voldemort had the capacity for good (and I've been wandering around the Evil in ME thread much too much ). Harry having Voldemort's soul, IMO, is not the same as Harry being Voldemort, so to speak.

A very interesting topic, Sween, and a fascinating article. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Radagast The Brown]

I disagree, Elemmire - the examples you pointed (parselmouth, wands, etc.) doesn't show Harry is evil - it just shows he's close to Voldemort, and we've already known that.

About the crutiatus, (sp.) Harry didn't want really to cause her that much pain, IIRC. That's why the magic didn't really succeed, and wasn't as painful as Harry planned.

I also think it's highly unlikely that Rowling would make Harry dead, or possessed by Voldemort - as it's her favourite character in the books... and she probably likes him too much to make him evil.
I think the woman who wrote the article is a bit extreme in going into details.

[sirigorn]

Yeah, I agree. Really intresting and all, but not happening. I like the sharing one life idea, though.

Dumbledore's explained why Harry has such a close connection, and I don't think he mentioned anything about Voldie's soul being is his body.

No, I don't think that having his soul in him and being him is the same thing. But it's closer than you make him out to be. If Harry's soul is floating around out there, and Voldie's in his body, then Voldie would have free rein over him, and it would all be Voldie in there, nothing of Harry. So, since Harry's not a Slytherin, or evil as far as we know, I highly doubt that Voldie's in there.

And he can't be dead, and be brought back to life. No one can reverse death.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I disagree, Elemmire - the examples you pointed (parselmouth, wands, etc.) doesn't show Harry is evil - it just shows he's close to Voldemort, and we've already known that.

I didn't mean he was evil! I meant he could have easily been a Slytherin! Sorry!

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

About the crutiatus, (sp.) Harry didn't want really to cause her that much pain, IIRC. That's why the magic didn't really succeed, and wasn't as painful as Harry planned.

She had just...

KILLED SIRIUS!

He unconsciously might not have been ready to use the curse, but I still hold that he has a dark side that almost comes out at times like that and when he though Sirius was a murderer in Book 3.

Originally Posted by Radagast the Brown

I also think it's highly unlikely that Rowling would make Harry dead, or possessed by Voldemort - as it's her favourite character in the books... and she probably likes him too much to make him evil.

Well, we won't know one way or the other until the series ends, but it's still plausible in my mind. Rowling sure seems to like killing off characters...

sirigorn~ What if Harry possesses Voldemort's soul, and what was brought back is not Voldemort?

It's an odd theory, but at this point anything's possible...

[sirigorn]

I like Dark!Harry, he's funny. Anywho, I don't think it'll happen in canon, but a dark Harry is fun to read about. And like you said, it's not entirely strange, he has shown Dark tendencies in canon.

sirigorn~ What if Harry possesses Voldemort's soul, and what was brought back is not Voldemort?

Heh? I'm afraid I don't get what you mean.

[Embladyne]

I find the changling theory interesting and pleasing, but the "Dead Harry" theory seems a bit off to me at this point in the story. I like the idea of Harry possesing at least part of Voldy's soul, as it makes some of his abilities and actions make more sense. Also, it would make a very unique story, in terms of the protagonist.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

sirigorn~ What if Harry possesses Voldemort's soul, and what was brought back is not Voldemort?

That actually did occur to me, and is an interesting theory as well.

Just a question:
Everybody here knows that J.K.R. is planning on writing a 8th book, right?

[sirigorn]

No, she's not. She said something like "I won't say I won't, because I'll break my promise, but I don't think I will. If I do, it'll be something like an enclyclopedia."

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by sirigorn

I like Dark!Harry, he's funny. Anywho, I don't think it'll happen in canon, but a dark Harry is fun to read about. And like you said, it's not entirely strange, he has shown Dark tendencies in canon. Heh? I'm afraid I don't get what you mean.

It was written about in one of the theories that branched off from the link above. Basically, the HP we know is not the real HP. Or perhaps, there never was a real HP.

If Voldemort planned on obtaining immortality by wiping out his past and future (something touched upon in the articles), he would have had to do something to his infant self. The logic behind it is dizzying at best, but there is a theory that the HP that the Potters had was actually an infant Tom Riddle brought back from the past.

A very strange theory, indeed. There are probably other variations of it that make more sense.

Or... the more logical way to explain this is to assume that something else happened when Voldemort used the avada kedavra spell on HP. Perhaps... and this is pushing it, but when it comes to wizarding, anything is possible... HP was killed, but Voldemort's own soul as a result of some backlash got put into HP's body?

Pure speculation. I don't think that part is in the theories. Just trying to show you that it is theoretically possible that HP has Voldemort's soul.

Now... how do we know for sure that the Voldemort of today is the Voldemort of more than a decade earlier? Voldemort all but died. For all we know, this know Voldemort is nothing but a compilation of his memories and a will to exist past death that is now possessing a body?

Remember when he mentioned that he was "less than a ghost"?

If not, that's okay. Neither do I, but they spoke about it in the articles.

[PippinTook]

At the end of CoS, Dumbledore said something like, "That [choosing to be in Gryffindor] is what makes you different from Voldemort. It's our choices, Harry, far more than our abilities that make us who we are." So, like, if Harry had Voldemort's soul in him, why wouldn't Voldemort have any hold on Harry? And why is Harry so noble deep down and stuff? Surely if you were housing the darkest wizard in the world's soul, you would be affected in some way. I don't know...I dont really buy it. It seems that every theory I hear doesn't fit in to the books, and I seriously doubt anyone can break into JKR's mind, many have tried, but when we finally find out everyone's going to be like..."Oooooooh!"

Yeah, lol, I'd rather just wait and be amazed when we do find out everything that happens.

[Sween]

I personally think that it is very plauseiable that Harry if not having Voldermorts soul is defintally carrying round something of his and it stands to some logic that Harry lost something of his own. The real mystery in Harry Potter is what happened that night in Godrics Hallow? Voldermort seems to think that his curse mearly backfired but im not sure how this can be so because of all the complications of which Voldermort seems yet to know of entirely. What Magic did Lilly Potter do? And slightly more importantally what gift does Harry have himself? because he must have some special to be refered to in the prophacy.

I think making Harry dead or at least missing something would be a very good and attractive road for her to go down.

Plus i think it will set up the ending i imagin which will take place right back of the start of book 1 Harry and Voldermort will die but he will save his past self entirely. Its just mad enough to be true

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

I didn't mean he was evil! I meant he could have easily been a Slytherin! Sorry!

Ahhh. Ok.

She had just... He unconsciously might not have been ready to use the curse, but I still hold that he has a dark side that almost comes out at times like that and when he though Sirius was a murderer in Book 3.

I don't know - as I see it he's not evil at all, considering what he knows. You can't know what others would've done in his situation. I don't think it has anything to do with him being affected of Voldemort. I don't think Voldemort really affected his personality. It really doesn't seem so - he's not like Voldemort at all, and I can't see any really dark sides in him - he was just frasturated during much of the time of the fifth book (and it didn't make the book any good. The book sucks IMO)

sirigorn~ What if Harry possesses Voldemort's soul, and what was brought back is not Voldemort?

I can't find it likely - as this Voldemort has all the memories , knowledge and probably will get the same power as the old one had, and also thinks and acts in the same way.

Or... the more logical way to explain this is to assume that something else happened when Voldemort used the avada kedavra spell on HP. Perhaps... and this is pushing it, but when it comes to wizarding, anything is possible... HP was killed, but Voldemort's own soul as a result of some backlash got put into HP's body?

Pure speculation. I don't think that part is in the theories. Just trying to show you that it is theoretically possible that HP has Voldemort's soul.

Yeah, it's theoretically possible... but most things are theoretically possible, especially in HP books.

It doesn't really feel right though - and in this theory - does Voldemort's spirit divided into 2? or is it only in Harry, and then the body of Voldremort isn't really Voldemort? I have problems with that as he acts and thinks and is basically Voldemort not only in body.

Originally Posted by Sween

What Magic did Lilly Potter do? And slightly more importantally what gift does Harry have himself? because he must have some special to be refered to in the prophacy.

Seems to me like she, before dying, sacrifise herself to protect Harry with magic to protect him from Voldemort... nothing really special. It protected Harry only from Voldemort - and only till Voldremot did the ressurection with Harry's blood, and then since Voldemort had, somehow Harry in him... it couldn't protect him anymore.
I don't understand what you mean in the other question... ?

[azalea]

I can think of one incident to support that theory: when he was "oddly" happy at hearing the sound of his mother pleading with Vold for Harry's life (ie, Voldie would take pleasure in hearing all that,etc.).

But I don't think it's true.
For one thing, it's awfully complicated, and as much as I like the books, I still recognize that the main audience of the author is Young People. I don't think that she's going to make it quite that bizarre and complex (can you imagine how much exposition she'd have to include to backtrack and explain everything in the story).
I know YOU young people understand and can think complexly (word?), but I just think that she respects her greater audience enough to not pull something completely bizarre like that.
Also, he is The Boy Who Lived. It wouldn't make sense to then say, oh, actually he didn't really live. :P Again, that respect for the audience thing. She's not going to lie.

There were some holes I could poke in the author's essay in the realm of using Dementors to right the situation (things involving memories[=persona] vs. the soul), but I can't remember what they were right now.
Anyway, bottom line, fun to talk about, but I vote no.

Maybe he got Lily's soul.

[Elemmírë]

I vote no too, but all the same, I wish something like that would happen...

There probably will be some sort of bizarre twist... though most likely not a theory heard yet. There's been some sort of twist in every book so far, each one worse and more serious than the one before (IMO)...

But at this point, it's likely that even if she had been planning something like that, she'd change it at least a bit... perhaps...

[inked]

One of the more bizarre theories, or so I said at the time. But there's death and there's Harry. The twists were superbly done after all.