Gondor's Navy

[easterlinge]

There's supposed to be a mighty Gondorian fleet at Pelargir.

But in ROTK, the Corsairs of Umbar gave the Gondorians a lot of trouble by drawing away reinforcements from Minas Tirith. How'd they get past Pelargir's fleet, sailing up to the mouth of the Anduin? Was Pelargir itself besieged?

[Ñólendil]

If I remember aright, no reinforcements were sent from Minas Tirith. They couldn't afford it. The City's strength was lessened because the southern fiefs needed to combat the Southern threat. I don't believe the enemy ever got past Pelargir. From there on the ships were filled with the Grey Company and allies, right?

[easterlinge]

Sorry, Inoldonil, I meant "no reinforcements were sent to Minas Tirith", not from the City. It was a typo.

Garn!! Garn !! Garn !!

Still, the Corsairs were not troubled by Gondorian ships. It implies either:
A) The Gondorian Fleet was kept busy by another fleet while the Corsairs landed in the fiefs.

or

B) The Gondorian Fleet had been annihilated in battle, and Pelargir blockaded or besieged

Either way, Aragorn would still have some work to do after that move to the Morannon.

[Ñólendil]

There could by another reason of why the Gondorians did not elect to engage in warfare in the Bay of Balfalas, contesting the Southrons. It may be that they thought they had more of a chance on their own turf, and trusted not at all that they could overcome the sea-craft of their enemies.

[easterlinge]

That's a possiblility.

Aragorn, disguised as "Thorongil", led a raid to burn the ships at Umbar rather than risk a head-on sea battle. It suggests that the Corsairs were building up a huge fleet.

It would also indicate that Gondor was no longer the sea power it once was. When did the decline begin? Why was the Navy not fully restored?

Afterwards, "Thorongil" vanished from Gondor. Perhaps he realised that Gondor's sea-power would not be sufficient to counter the Corsairs? But what was his long-term plan to help Gondor?

[Michael Martinez]

Sea-power would have waxed and waned with the interests of Gondor's rulers. The last great seaborne campaign for Gondor occurred in the 19th century, when Telumehtar took and destroyed Umbar (which had been seized by Castamir's rebels, though by this time his family had come to an end). After Telumehtar's reign, the Wainriders began to attack Gondor, so the Kings had to devote more and more of their resources to land-based defense.

King Earnil II, who defeated the Wainriders when he was Captain of the Southern Army, was able to rebuild Gondor's strength sufficiently that he could send a large fleet north to help destroy Angmar (the fleet merely transported Gondor's army and allies to Lindon, where both the Forlond and Harlond will filled to capacity).

Gondor's navy was either very weak by the time Beren was Steward, or else it was defeated in the attacks launched in late 2758. This was the year in which Wulf attacked Rohan and drove Helm Hammerhand into Westfold Vale. The Long Winter ensued and Rohan was beset by enemies from the east (probably Balchoth or similar peoples), the north (Dunlendings), and the west (probably more Dunlendings, who were joined by Haradrim who had sailed up the coast).

While Rohan was being overrun, Gondor was attacked along its coasts. Beren was unable to send help to Rohan until the next Spring.

The histories mention no more naval activity until Aragorn/Thorongil's raid on Umbar in Ecthelion's reign.


Most likely there was a small fleet in the harbor of Pelargir, but lacking the ships and manpower to face the Corsairs at sea, Denethor probably refused to send out the navy in what would have been deemed a hopeless effort. It may be Denethor was hoping some sort of sortie would be possible. When the reinforcements march into Minas Tirith, the narrative says that only a few of the men could be spared from the ships.

[easterlinge]

Yes, I remember now, not many men came from Pelargir becuase they could not be spared from the ships. I suppose the Corsairs bypassed Pelargir completely, or used a small portion of their fleet to blockade it; the rest of their ships went to the fiefs.

News of Aragorn's victory with the Army of Ghosts may have caused the Corsairs to withdraw the blockade, or else the Pelargir ships may have broken out on their own.

News may have arrived in the few days following the Battle of Pelennor Fields that Pelargir was no longer at risk.

[Michael Martinez]

The fleet Aragorn seized lay at Pelargir. I would say that the Gondorian ships had either been lost or were blockaded in the harbor.

[Kirinki54]

It seems that Aragorn had at least a loose strategy mapped out from many years back, as he dis that thing as Thorongil. Perhaps he had discussed this with both Elrond, Galadriel and likely Gandalf? Both Galadriel and Elrond sends messages to Aragorn about "The Path of the Dead".

[Michael Martinez]

I don't think Aragorn was trying to plan ahead in that kind of detail. He saw an opportunity to weaken Gondor's enemies and he took it. He may, perhaps, have delayed the onset of the war. But mostly such an action would have just nflicted losses in men and material on the enemy. The more significant deed was probably Aragorn's slaying of the captain of the corsairs. Tolkien may have intended to imply that the corsairs were in disarray for several years afterward until they found a new leader.

[easterlinge]

I wonder what kind of ships Gondorians used. Umbar is but a rebelled province of Gondor, so the style of ship would be similar to the Gondorians'. The Umbarite Corsair ships used both oars and sail, but this could mean any style from Viking longships to Phoenician galleys to Byzantine dromonds.

If I remember rightly, one of Columbus' ships used oars as well as sails, as did the Spanish Armada, so we can't rule out that style either.

Do Gondorian ships ram like Greeks, or do they grapple and board like the Romans in the First Punic War, or do they fight with ranged weapons like ballistae and Geek Fire?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by easterlinge

I wonder what kind of ships Gondorians used. Umbar is but a rebelled province of Gondor, so the style of ship would be similar to the Gondorians'. The Umbarite Corsair ships used both oars and sail, but this could mean any style from Viking longships to Phoenician galleys to Byzantine dromonds.

If I remember rightly, one of Columbus' ships used oars as well as sails, as did the Spanish Armada, so we can't rule out that style either.

Do Gondorian ships ram like Greeks, or do they grapple and board like the Romans in the First Punic War, or do they fight with ranged weapons like ballistae and Geek Fire?

At least some of the Umbarian ships were based on 16th century Spanish slave-driven galleys.

I think the majority of Gondor's ships were intended to be sail-and-oar driven, but they would have been oared by free men.

[Valandil]

There's at least one reference to Numenorean ships being 'many masted' - I've wondered if they achieved the 'square-rigged' technology of the Age of Exploration... if their ships would resemble those of European navies from the 15th to 18th centuries. The larger classes of those ships were three-masted... I wonder if any Numenorean ships might have had more. (and while I don't have the HoMe book with 'The Lost Road' - someone here has posted something about the use of metal on their ships... but I don't know if Tolkien would have disregarded the idea or not) Second Age Numenorean ships probably had no rivals... so any weapons associated with the ships might have been more likely used to 'soften up' armies ashore before 'hitting the beach'.

So... fast-forward to Third Age Gondor. They might have had that same technology, but ironically, it might have become less useful over time. The ships copied from those of Isildur and Anarion may have given way to craft more like galleys or longships... for dealing with the southern navies. They didn't venture into the open sea, like Aldarion and his compatriots.

[Attalus]

Good point, Val. The Spanish used a hybrid galley-frigate that was square-rigged, at least in part. A square-rigged vessel would have an obvious advantage out on the Bay of Belfalas: more speed, fewer chances of the only sail carrying away in a sudden squall. I think that they could lie closer to the wind than a vessel with a single square sail, though certainly not as well as a lateen-rigged ship. They could carry a greater weight of guns, too, but that would not matter in the Third Age.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Good point, Val. The Spanish used a hybrid galley-frigate that was square-rigged, at least in part. A square-rigged vessel would have an obvious advantage out on the Bay of Belfalas: more speed, fewer chances of the only sail carrying away in a sudden squall. I think that they could lie closer to the wind than a vessel with a single square sail, though certainly not as well as a lateen-rigged ship. They could carry a greater weight of guns, too, but that would not matter in the Third Age.

Elrond's ship had more than one sail. I cannot find any reference to multi-sailed ships in the Black Fleet, but Tolkien did specifically mention dromunds.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Valandil

There's at least one reference to Numenorean ships being 'many masted' - I've wondered if they achieved the 'square-rigged' technology of the Age of Exploration... if their ships would resemble those of European navies from the 15th to 18th centuries. The larger classes of those ships were three-masted... I wonder if any Numenorean ships might have had more. (and while I don't have the HoMe book with 'The Lost Road' - someone here has posted something about the use of metal on their ships... but I don't know if Tolkien would have disregarded the idea or not) Second Age Numenorean ships probably had no rivals... so any weapons associated with the ships might have been more likely used to 'soften up' armies ashore before 'hitting the beach'.

Unfinished Tales is the most reliable source of information about Numenor from the Middle-earth mythology. "The Lost Road" is not relevant. Given that "Akallabeth", "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", "Of Numenor", "Aldarion and Erendis", and "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" don't mention metal ships (or flying craft), it is safe to say that Tolkien abandoned the concept.

The original Atlantis story, being a time travel tale, was supposed to be science fiction, not fantasy. Tolkien downplayed the importance of technology in his fantasy, although he did not totally remove it (since he allowed for smoking mills, huge wheels and boilers, and gunpowder in The Lord of the Rings).

We do know that the Numenoreans developed steel bows, so their metallurgy was pretty advanced. But they would not have needed metal ships for naval warfare because there were no other naval powers to threaten them.

Gondor and Arnor would have been threated by Black Numenorean states like Umbar, but there is still no mention of metal ships in the Third Age.

[Ñólendil]

I think by the time of the WR, Umbar had long ceased to be a province of Gondor, in name or otherwise. Damrod or Mablung in Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit in Book IV name Umbar as the most northerly realm of the Haradrim.