How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Gordis]

How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder?

This question, put by Landroval, is so interesting that it deserves a special thread, IMO. Also I have some crazy ideas on the matter that I would like to share.

Council of Elrond: Balin will find no ring in Moria, said Gandalf. Thror gave it to Thrain his son, but not Thrain to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thrain in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late.

Originally Posted by Landroval

You know, I wonder, why was it necessary to take the ring with torment? Wouldn't sheer force suffice? Perhaps a common feature of the power rings was to be hidden to everyone and hold on to its master. Gandalf maintained his ring, even though he was imprisoned by Saruman and even when reimbodied; Sauron too kept the ring to himself all the time, with the destruction of Numenor and whatnot; we could speculate about how Galadriel and Elrond kept their rings secret too...

You know, it is so very true, Landroval.

Perhaps some torment was what every prisoner received in Sauron's dungeon's just as a part of the service - like towels in a hotel?? But there may be MUCH more to it...

Have you noticed, that no one apparently had his ring DRAGGED from his finger by force?
I mean, Sauron had his finger cut first, Frodo as well, in Isildur's and Gollum's cases, the Ring slipped from the finger all by itself; in Deagol's case, he was most probably killed when NOT wearing the Ring; in cases of the ring transfers from one person to another their owners didn't actually WEAR the rings, as in Frodo-Sam's case (near Shelob's lair), or took off the rings willingly.

Probably, it is just IMPOSSIBLE to drag a ring of Power off someone's finger without either cutting off the finger or killing the ring-wielder - in a special way (see below)?

The other option is to torture the wielder, so he gives you his ring himself?

I guess, in the case of Thrain, the last method was used, as the dwarf became mentally and physically damaged. It wouldn't have happened if only his finger was cut away.

I don't think a Ring could be hidden from either Sauron, or Saruman: "invisible" in Tolkien's world means "existing in the World of Shadows", but both Maiar had access to it. And Saruman knew about Gandalf's ring (UT). Probably he just didn't want to cut his colleague's finger off, or torment him really hard - he may still have hoped that Gandalf would co-operate? And killing the maia Gandalf would make him take the Ring with him - as Sauron did when "killed" in Numenor.

And if we go a little further (maybe further than it is reasonable ), could it be that ANY wielder, if killed with a Ring ON, takes the Ring with him, when he becomes a mere spirit?

So, if orcs killed Gollum while he was WEARING the Ring, there would be no material "Precious" on the finger of his dead body, instead, his spirit would take the Ring with him to Mandos and beyond? (sounds crazy?)

The same way with Isildur: if the Orcs had shot Isildur while he was invisible, the Ring would have gone out of the Circles of the World with his soul forever? Maybe the Ring felt this danger, that's why it slipped from Isildur's finger?

And Frodo at Weathertop: note that the Nazgul approached the hobbits with NORMAL swords. They could have chopped Frodo to pieces quite easily, attacking all at once. BUT, it was only the Witch-King (who had a Morgul Blade) who attacked him, and he wounded Frodo with this weapon ONLY, not the long sword he had in his other hand.
Why not chop the hobbit's head off, take the body, Ring and all, and carry away?
- Perhaps because in this way, there would be NO ring on his dead body, and try to get it back from the Halls of Mandos!

The Morgul Blade was the ONLY suitable weapon - it bounded the soul to the Middle Earth, making it unable to leave.
Perhaps, this was also the reason why Sauron sent the Nazgul for the Ring, not some mortals. The ringbearer HAD to be killed with a MORGUL Blade, that was crucial.

Thoughts?