Who attacks the Hobbit rooms?

[squinteyedsoutherner]

My apologies if this has been brought up before but:

I just finished re-reading the chapter Strider and A Knife in the Dark and something has occurred to me that I hadn’t thought of before. Do the wraiths actually trash the hobbit’s room, or do the Breelander spies do it? I had always assumed it was the wraiths but:

“What will happen” asked Merry “will they attack the Inn?”

“No, I think not” said Strider. “They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues Eriador still lie before us. But there power is in terror, and some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferney, and some of the strangers, and maybe the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at Westgate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.”

It seems odd to me that Tolkien would put these words into Strider’s mouth if he is going to have the Wraiths attack the Inn that night. It seems as though he is suggesting that the some of the villagers will do it for them; chasing the horses off, and forcing open the window. If it were some of the villagers, it would explain why the wrong room is attacked (although the other wraiths are attacking Fatty so I’m not sure how far this line of reasoning goes toward proving anything). Tolkien never says who actually attacked the room that night, (and unlike the Bakshi and Jackson films no one hears anything either) but he does say that the squint-eyed southerner was up to no good, and he has disappeared.

So who attacked the room? And if it was the wraiths; why is Tolkien introducing Strider to the reader by giving the hobbits information that turns out to be completely wrong. The more I think about it the more it seems to me that the wraiths snuck into Bree through the back gate and are lurking in the shadows getting information and driving the villagers to do all of the work that is in the open either by paying them or scaring the crap out of them. Any thoughts?

[Valandil]

I had always thought it was the Black Riders too. But I'm sure I read somewhere (maybe in one of his letters) where JRRT said it was not them... that it was indeed some of their local 'help'... hmmm, maybe one or more were present though - there was some shrieking going on when it turned out to be a ruse, right? Or was that only in the movie and not the book? (EDIT: ol' squintyeye edited his post to say it wasn't in the books after I had this posted, btw ) (ALSO EDIT: At least Strider certainly advised the right thing when he had them not sleep in their own beds... )

Similarly, another thread is discussing the figure in Sam's vision who speaks - and the 'wheel of fire' - Frodo with some 'power enhancement' of the Ring, right? Again, it seems I read something odd on this... like was that actually Eru interposing? If so, I don't know how you can see it in the story...

[Nurvingiel]

Hasn't this thread been done before? (Someone who was in it - what was the outcome?)

[Attalus]

We debated this at length at SF-Fandom. Recall that Aragorn said that Bill Ferny was just increasing his profits on the deal by selling them Bill the Pony, indicating that he got paid off and that it was he and the Southron spy that did the dirty work. Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room, locate lumps on beds designed to look like sleeping Hobbits to earthly eyes, and tear them up.

[Nurvingiel]

Are you saying the Nazgul didn't try to stab them in their beds at all? Or, just that they didn't ransack the rooms.

[brownjenkins]

good point squinteyedsoutherner... i never really thought on it, but it makes perfect sense that the ringwraiths would prefer to work through others if they could

[Attalus]

I am saying that Bill Ferny and the Southerner tore up the bolsters and ransacked the room. Whether one or more of the Nazgûl were with them is a moot point (sorry), but I am inclined to think that there was. They would not trust such rascals with the Ring, assuming that they took it from Frodo, which of course they didn't.

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Attalus
I am saying that Bill Ferny and the Southerner tore up the bolsters and ransacked the room. Whether one or more of the Nazgûl were with them is a moot point (sorry), but I am inclined to think that there was. They would not trust such rascals with the Ring, assuming that they took it from Frodo, which of course they didn't.

Now that is interesting. Most arguments against the Nazgul's participation tend to take Aragorn's speculation at face value and assume that the break-in was solely the work of Ferny and Co. I've never been particularly persuaded that Aragorn's admitted guess was quite that compelling. However, the hybrid operation posited here makes good sense-the Nazgul would be unlikely to leave such an expedition unsupervised.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Attalus
Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room, locate lumps on beds designed to look like sleeping Hobbits to earthly eyes, and tear them up.

Since the text is vague, this seems to be the most compelling piece of the argument. Whether or not the Ringwraiths were present, I have to assume the bulk of the nasty work was done by their agents.

[jerseydevil]

But they never actually attacked the Prancing Pony though.

“What will happen” asked Merry “will they attack the Inn?”

I think what Aragorn was referring to was full frontal attack to try to claim the Ring. They would not attempt that.

“No, I think not” said Strider. “They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way.

I think what he said - is what they did - snuck in in the dead of night and went to the rooms.

..In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people..

I think the evilness that the others do - is finding information - where the Hobbits are staying and so forth. I think it was the black riders that went into the room though.

I feel if the Black Riders can manage to attack them on Weathertop at night - they can manage to attack them in a hotel room too. Also - there seems to be no argument that the Black Riders are the ones who attack Crickhollow - so again - why wouldn't they be able to attack Frodo's room in the Prancing Pony?

[edit] I disagree that the information that Aragorn gave them is completely wrong. I think the way people have interpreted Merry's question and Strider's words are wrong.

[Falagar]

And of course, there's the scenario of one of the Nazgûls getting slain. I don't think they (or Sauron) would risk having to fight the Bree-lenders (even if the risk for the Bree-lenders to fight was very small) when they could send others to do it.

There may be something about this in UT, but it's a long time since I last read in it so I can't remember...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Attalus
We debated this at length at SF-Fandom. Recall that Aragorn said that Bill Ferny was just increasing his profits on the deal by selling them Bill the Pony, indicating that he got paid off and that it was he and the Southron spy that did the dirty work. Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room, locate lumps on beds designed to look like sleeping Hobbits to earthly eyes, and tear them up.

Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...

Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
But they never actually attacked the Prancing Pony though.

I think what Aragorn was referring to was full frontal attack to try to claim the Ring. They would not attempt that.

I think what he said - is what they did - snuck in in the dead of night and went to the rooms.

I think the evilness that the others do - is finding information - where the Hobbits are staying and so forth. I think it was the black riders that went into the room though.

I feel if the Black Riders can manage to attack them on Weathertop at night - they can manage to attack them in a hotel room too. Also - there seems to be no argument that the Black Riders are the ones who attack Crickhollow - so again - why wouldn't they be able to attack Frodo's room in the Prancing Pony?

[edit] I disagree that the information that Aragorn gave them is completely wrong. I think the way people have interpreted Merry's question and Strider's words are wrong.

I agree with these points as well...

[Wayfarer]

If JRR has said in his letters that it wasn't them, then I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Can't recall him ever saying that, though.

I /do/ take Aragorn's speculation at face value- he certainly knew his lore when it came to evil creatures. The Nazgul were not the type of force that would attack openly and obviously in a populatd area, but they were certainly not agents of stealth that would sneak in to attack someone.

No, it was very likely some of the local humans that they had intimidated or corrupted. The nazgul's tactic is what they do at weathertop- try and catch their prey alone, far from help, and descend on them for the kill in the dead of night.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
No, it was very likely some of the local humans that they had intimidated or corrupted. The nazgul's tactic is what they do at weathertop- try and catch their prey alone, far from help, and descend on them for the kill in the dead of night.

And what better place would that be than alone in their room with no exit?

EDIT - they don't always do things in the open. Also - it's not like they're really afraid of death. Who is going to stop them once they have the ring? Sorry - I also don't think they would have someone else take care of Frodo like that and risk the Ring getting into someone elses hands.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...

Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level...

Oh, that's impressive. Stabbed one poor little Hobbit in the shoulder, didn't even do that job right, and then they were all five run off by Aragorn, alone. Even the Witch-King at the Pellenor only managed to break Éowyn's arm, before getting killed by a woman and a Hobbit, neither of them veteran soldiers.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Attalus
Oh, that's impressive. Stabbed one poor little Hobbit in the shoulder, didn't even do that job right,

The job was NOT to kill him - they did their job which was to bring him over to their world through the wound and sliver of snife make it's way to the heart - then collect the ring.

and then they were all five run off by Aragorn, alone.

They weren't run off - they didn't need to get Frodo at that time - they could wait. No one thought that a Hobbit could withstand that wound so long. Even Gandalf made mention how he far outlasted the strongest men.

Even the Witch-King at the Pellenor only managed to break Éowyn's arm, before getting killed by a woman and a Hobbit, neither of them veteran soldiers.

There was more to him getting killed than by a hobbit and a woman. There was the blade which Merry obtained in the Barrow Downs which had something to do with that.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I agree with JD here, the goal on Weathertop was to command Frodo to reveal himself (which he did) so they could stab him in the heart. Frodo’s courage and attempted stab at them resulted in a deflection of that thrust from his heart to his shoulder. The wraiths left because they felt they had still accomplished their task even though they missed the heart. The goal at that point was to wait for Frodo to turn into a wraith himself and come back to Mordor willingly.

Remember Aragorn is surprised they are not attacking again until he learns of Frodo's wound. Also, I don't think Aragorn plays any role in their departure after the attack, they are in and out before anyone really gets a chance to do anything. By the time Aragorn picks up the fire they're already leaving.

Funny the wraiths attack at Crickhollow and in the room (if it was them) both of these events seem to undermine their ability to sense the whereabouts of the ring.

[Wayfarer]

Oh, that's impressive. Stabbed one poor little Hobbit in the shoulder, didn't even do that job right,

The job was NOT to kill him - they did their job which was to bring him over to their world through the wound and sliver of snife make it's way to the heart - then collect the ring.

Wrong, and wrong.

The text strongly inticates that the Witch-King was aiming for a killing blow to the heart. Only Frodo's courage (or foolishness) in charging and attacking caused the blow to miss, saving his life.

But even that wound was enough, given the potency of the weapon used, that the Nazgul did not feel the need to essay another attack.

[Attalus]

But, if they were so powerful, why didn't they just kill Frodo and take the Ring? Why all of the sneak-around, they could just take it? When they were horsed, the Nazgûl overwhelmed the Dúnedain at Sarn Ford and killed and ran off many, according to UT. Unhorsed, all they could do was to try to poison/bewitch him. My point is proved in that they couldn't even attack Frodo with the Morgul-knife until he put on the Ring, and they screwed that up by stabbing him in the shoulder instead of the heart. You cannot tell me with a straight face that if they could have killed Aragorn and simply picked up the Ring, they would not have. No, I think the Nazgûl unmounted were quite weak, hence Gandalf's comment that, after the Ford of Bruinen, they had to make their way back to their master as best they could. And, Merry's blade or no, if he were all that powerful, he could have still defended himself. It was Éowyn, not Merry, that killed him.