the definative balrog answer :)

[afro-elf]

at long last the final answer to the balrog question


from http://www.angelfire.com/sk/sharkens/

click unoffical scripts


GANDALF:
"Oh... Well, run for the Bridge everyone! Last one across is Orc meat!"

EVERYONE runs for the Bridge. As they do so, bad guys come up from behind and start bridging the chasm. At their head a is a vast flaming shadow. It is man-like, only larger, and seemingly carved of fire and ash. It wields a whip of many thongs in one hand, but it has only one wing.

LEGOLAS:
"Aye! Aye! Boy do I feel dumb saying Aye! A Balrog has come!"


yes the ONE WING BALROG

it beats the 5 ass monkey from South park

[Prince Faramir]

Without changing the argument though the balrog question is simply that we can never know. Personally i believe there are metahorical wings emphasising the monstrous power and terror of the balrog. It has no real wings as in to fly, this can be seen by him not flying out of the chasm, coupled with this is his fall from the peak of Z [cant remember how to spell it] although gandalf casts him down surely a winged creature could use these wings as either a defensive advantage or an attacking advantage.


Please don't take this as a re-start of the 'wings' question i'm just pondering my thoughts about it outloud for the first time.

[Ñólendil]

Whatever your intentions, it will be a re-start of the 'wings' question (or debate), most likely. I hope not.

[IronParrot]

Well, having never been fully involved in the whole Wings debate, I'm tempted...

[Prince Faramir]

but if it does who cares? thats the point interesting structured debate and reasoning [and shouting!!!!] heehee i am right though so neh! neh!

[Agburanar]

The Balrog could have potentially been an image of everyone's worst nightmare, so it would have a different form (although still fiery) for everyone. No wings required! The end.

[Kirinki54]

Another aspect on balrogs:

Judging from the behaviour of the Moria balrog (who is the one we see most of, I think), people handling skills is not exactly what comes to mind.
Yet in the Sil. Morgoth had appointed Gothmog to be the Captain of Angband. Would that not imply some skills of administration, personnel, logistics, etc? Or did he simply take the first place in battles?
Perhaps there is another side to balrogs?

[Ñólendil]

The Balrog of Mória (despite his lack of people-skills) none the less ruled Mória, politically and militarily. Look at the Witch-king. Gothmog must have ruled by oppression and terror.

But 'Captain' probably does mean Gothmog was the general of Angband's military. The head guy in Hell was Morgoth, as you know.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
But 'Captain' probably does mean Gothmog was the general of Angband's military. The head guy in Hell was Morgoth, as you know.

Yes, but if even Morgoth probably held all strings very tight, being a general still entails a lot mot than charging against the opponent. A good general must have skills in many areas, That´s why I wonder.

Originally posted by Inoldonil
The Balrog of Mória (despite his lack of people-skills) none the less ruled Mória, politically and militarily. Look at the Witch-king. Gothmog must have ruled by oppression and terror.

If I may say so, Moria seems to have been rather sloppily run when the Nine arrived. There was a creature watching the gate, but I find no indication it communicated with the Orcs, Trolls or Balrog inside of Moria. And the gate seems not to have been guarded on the inside. Not until Pippin alerts the inhabitants (likely the Balrog) do we find a indication of them.
When the Nine are attacked, it is true the Orcs stand back by the bridge to let their champion do the fighting (who wouldn´t?), but is he really in command besides being the biggest bully around?
A well run military force would not have let the remaining Company depart through the east gate.
As for the Witch-King, he had actually been a king to rule a large kingdom, and probably was extremly clever and skilled even before he was snared totally by Sauron.
IMHO.

[Miriel Stormrider]

Who said anything about Moria being a well run military force? I think, when not manipulated or controlled by Sauron, orcs and trolls and things (like Balrogs) hole up and spend their time terrorizing the surrounding neighborhood (& each other).
Most of Sauron's (and Morgoth's) creatures are just slaves, not really capable of leading (except through fear), or cooporating to reach a common goal.
Some of course, like the Witch King, are smart enough to think and plan for themselves.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Miriel Stormrider
I think, when not manipulated or controlled by Sauron, orcs and trolls and things (like Balrogs) hole up and spend their time terrorizing the surrounding neighborhood (& each other).

Then perhaps you share my confusion on Gothmog being the Angband Captain?

[Ñólendil]

Miriel and Kirinki, I actually agree with you both. Durin's Bane none the less ran the place 'politically and militarily' you could still say. Well, maybe not politically. He didn't have a whole lot to work with, but there ya go.

[Wayfarer]

"Without changing the argument though the balrog question is simply that we can never know. Personally i believe there are metahorical wings emphasising the monstrous power and terror of the balrog. It has no real wings as in to fly, this can be seen by him not flying out of the chasm, coupled with this is his fall from the peak of Z [cant remember how to spell it] although gandalf casts him down surely a winged creature could use these wings as either a defensive advantage or an attacking advantage. "

LoL! Metaphorical wings!

Although, if his wings were spread from wall to wall, he wouldnt have been able to fly in moria. And on zirak zigilgandalf and the balrog were still inside the tower (I believe). It was only after gandalf had killed the balrog and blasted him throuhgh the stone walls that he fell.

[Ñólendil]

They weren't still in Durin's Tower:

'It was made, and it had not been destroyed,' said Gandalf. 'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issues at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.

'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. ...

The last days or day of the battle was thus fought on the top of Durin's Tower, the very pinnacle of Zirakzigil.

[Wayfarer]

Huh.

All that smiting of fire and lightning sound to me like the balrog could have been swooping down on gandalf.

[Prince Faramir]

don't 'lol' at my points you were both rude and IMO wrong.


i think my point of metaphorical wings was right, his darkness [wings spreading from wall to wall]could be understood to be just that, darkness like wings smothering the enemy.






dont like your tone wayfarer, please change it

[Ñólendil]

Oh, he's always like that Prince . He wasn't seriously laughing at you, he comes from a Tolkien forum in which it is quite normal to poke fun at eachother. I think what he found most humourous was your use of the word 'metaphorical'. I think what you actually meant was that the Balrog's wings were not physical, actual wings, but shadowy. That does not make them metaphorical, technically. Personally I would respond to him with 'Pooey', but that's me.

You are, however, encouraged to smack him when he starts correcting your spelling mistakes.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Prince Faramir
dont like your tone wayfarer, please change it

I assume you're using a compound statement/request and not an order in that sentance? In that case, you should make use of a reflexive pronoun. 'I' would be quite suitable.

If you are not, but in fact are stating an imperitive that I dislike my tone, I must reply as follows: Bah!

In any case, I have a number of alternate tones at my disposal. Perhaps you would enjoy one of these?


*outrageous drawl (I.e. my next door neighbor)* "I reckon tha' thisa one is mer suitable, doncha agree?"

*tittering* Oh, yes! Morthoron has a pair of tights _just_ like those, but the chainmail halter is _too_ braldor.

*Nasal* (raises nose in the air, and assumes Erudite stance)Yes, well, you see. My deployment of upherism premonstrating an inference of atticism in a prior theorum is quite frankly, none of your business.

*singing elaborately* Spam (lovely spam) spam spam spam, (beautiful spam) spam spam spam, spam spam spam, wonderful spaaam!

*harsh* Ash nazg durbatuluk! ash nazg gimbatul! Ash nazg thrakatuluk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!

*/waits for clouds to pass, and elves to uncover their ears, then continues:

*bell tone* DING DONG

*Dial Tone* Beep Beep Beep Beep

*Tuning fork* riiiiiinnnnggggg

*monotone* I...am...run...ning...for...pres...i...dent

Find anything you like?

] <-Mad Cow!

[afro-elf]

You have a biting wit that I enjoy, but there were a few errors in your post.

I assume you're using a compound statement/request and not an order in that sentance? In that case, you should make use of a reflexive pronoun. 'I' would be quite suitable

I is not a reflexive pronoun. It is a person pronoun.

If you are not, but in fact are stating an imperitive that I dislike my tone, I must reply as follows: Bah!

I think you meant that HE dislikes your tone. Not that you dislike your tone. I think you like your tone very much.

upherism

Did you perhaps mean euphemism?

premonstrating

Did you perhaps mean remonstarting or even demonstrating?

braldor

I won't even feign to know what that means.

theorum

Unless this is a British spelling this word is new to me. The word theorem which seems the closet in spelling does not apply to your sentence. ( at least not in a way that makes sense to me). But, if you meant forum then it makes more sense.

Erudite

Were you using erudite it is actually meaning (learned) or in its popular form meaning (rude or arrogant?)


Other wise I loved your biting wit. I just hope it is not turned against me.

[Ñólendil]

lol afro-elf! Can't put one passed a teacher!

Braldor (and Morthoron also) is a poster on another Middle-earth website btw.