LoTR discussion: Appendix C

***Earniel*** · 01-18-2008, 09:56 AM

This is only for the sake of completeness, since we earlier cut the Appendix C out of our discussion. And I might as wel put my 9000th post to good use.

I am not an expert in unraveling family relations, so let's just point out some of the things I noticed or found striking.

General impression

In appendix C we get four family trees, corresponding with the families of the four Hobbits from the Fellowship. They are said to be only a selection out of many, which I took either meaning that there are more family trees in the Red Book, or that there have been people omitted from the trees for reason of space. I haven't quite figured out which one, but both make sense.

My first reaction to it was that Hobbits did indeed hold great interest into maintaining family records. Each family tree goes back at least a few hundred years. Considering I draw a blank on even knowing the names and relations of my ancestors past my great-grandparents, that is quite a feat.

A second thing that catches attention is their ages. Ages from between 90 or even a 100 years are very common, if not prevalent.

If we look at the underlined names, which indicates whether the Hobbits were present at Bilbo's farewell party, we can see about half came from these four families. Which leaves about another 70 invited Hobbits with which Bilbo had no direct family-tie.

Baggins from Hobbiton

We're left a little bit guessing why the Baggins family had such influence or high reputation. With the Brandybucks and the Tooks, this is more clear as these families also control their own territory in the Shire. The Baggins-family does not appears to do so as well. The title above the family-tree says 'Baggins from Hobbiton', which seems to indicate most of them lived in that area, but there is no hint as to whether they owned large parts of it either.

When I compared the names of the family-trees I found each had a distinct sort of name. All the males in the Baggins-family have names ending on -o, which gives some hilarious results: Bingo, Polo, Porto and my personal favourite: Dudo. I was kind of expecting a Dodo too.

Aside from Dora and Prisca, all female names are plant-related.

I was also struck by the fact that, when you look at the relation between Frodo and Bilbo in the Baggins family tree, they are not as closely related as one would have thought originally. You have to go back to Bilbo's grandfather Mungo and Frodo's great-grandfather Largo, who were brothers. In that respect family-ties between Bilbo and Otho Sackville-Baggins is closer. No wonder Otho felt cheated out of his enheritage!

Coming to Otho, there is another peculiarity. Why the Sackville-Baggins combination? They are pretty much the only ones in the four family trees that keep a double last name. Only other one that I found is their cousin Falco Chubb-Baggins.

Took of Great Smials

The names of the Tooks strike a more medieval tone, which I tend to link with Germanic and Romanic names from continental Europe. Unlike most Baggins-names you can find Fredegars, Ferumbrasses or Everards in our own history. There's also more repetition of names. The female names have strong southern theme: Belladonna, Esmeralda, Donnamira, but have less connection to flowers or plants.

Frodo and Bilbo are much closer related from the view of the Took-family. Bilbo's mother Belladonna was the sister of Mirabella, who's Frodo's grandmother and probably the one taking care of young Frodo when his parents died young. Seen from this family-relation, it makes more sense that Bilbo chose Frodo as heir.

Under Hildifons, an uncle of Bilbo there's a little line: 'went off on a journey and never returned'. Would Gandalf have been involved, I wonder. He had been accused of getting young Tooks crazy enough to go adventuring. Would Hildifons have been one of them?

Another uncle of bilbo's, Isengar, has the mention: 'said to have gone to sea in his youth'. A very unhobbitlike travel destination, it would seem. I think here's another most interesting untold tale to be had.

With a family like that, no wonder Bilbo went on adventures of his own!

From this family-tree we can also learn that Fredegar, also known as Fatty Bolger was related in some degree to Frodo, Merry and Pippin. Interesting. It also seems to be Fredegar's sister Estella that Merry ends up marrying. This I had never noticed before.

Brandybuck of Buckland

The Brandybuck-family definitely seemed fond of nicknames such as Deepdelver, Masterful and Scattergold. They are about the only ones that include them in their family-tree.

The names of the Brandybucks also share similarities. Most male names tend to end on '-oc' or '-as' but very few are as retrace-able to our own history as the Took-names. I've only been able to identify Dodinas as Madoc as belonging to celtic mythology. The few female names are once again nearly all plant-related.

Longfather-tree of Samwise Gamgee

Like the Took-family, the Samwise's family also liked repetition of names, or very similar names. There are for example three different Halfreds, two Hamfasts, two Mays etc... But unlike the Tooks the Gardner's ancestors didn't bother with numbers.

The names also are very similar. There are several names starting with 'Hal-' or 'Ham-' and several ending on '-wise'.

Unlike the other families, who seem more tied to territory, Sam's ancestors seemed to move and relocate a lot. At least four different persons are mentioned to have moved from their original home.

Discussion

1. Have you ever looked at the family-trees in detail on previous re-reads? Do you feel they could have easily been left out of the appendices?
2. Are there any other family-trees that you think could have been included? Do you think Tolkien ever made others?
3. Hobbits have long lives compared to other non-Dunedain Men. Do you think this means the Hobbits are descended from from Númenoreans or Dunedain, or is this merely coincedence?
4. Do you have any idea why Otho took the name Sackville-Baggins rather than just Baggins?
5. What do you think became of Hildifons, who went adventuring? And do you think Gandalf had been at the source of his departure?
6. What do you think came of Isengar, who went to sea?
7. Do you agree, or disagree with my analysis of the theme or source of the Hobbit-names?
8. Is there anything significant I missed to mention?

You can wake up now.

Gordis · 01-18-2008, 06:24 PM

Wow Earniel - great job on the dullest part of the LOTR!

But seriously - I am impressed.Thank you for this summary.

1. Have you ever looked at the family-trees in detail on previous re-reads? Do you feel they could have easily been left out of the appendices?
I have NEVER read them - and I don't think I will anytime soon.

Calendars or notes about languages are WAY more interesting< IMO. I will never understand why Tolkien included this stuff, while he had no place left for such stories as found in Unfinished Tales. Why not put the "Hunt for the Ring" or the "Disaster of the Gladden" or the history of Gal and Сel instead?

2. Are there any other family-trees that you think could have been included? Do you think Tolkien ever made others?
Why not put the family tree of the Line of Elros (UT) here instead?

3. Hobbits have long lives compared to other non-Dunedain Men. Do you think this means the Hobbits are descended from from Númenoreans or Dunedain, or is this merely coincedence?
Maybe they come from Elves or Dwarves - they have even longer lives then men. I think hobbit's stature precludes them from having Dunedain blood. Maybe some genetic experiment by ol Gandalf - if not by the Enemy?

4. Do you have any idea why Otho took the name Sackville-Baggins rather than just Baggins?
??? No idea. Maybe it sounds better?

5. What do you think became of Hildifons, who went adventuring? And do you think Gandalf had been at the source of his departure?
I think Gandalf was behind all the hobbit adventures.And some might have ended very badly.

6. What do you think came of Isengar, who went to sea?
He drowned?

7. Do you agree, or disagree with my analysis of the theme or source of the Hobbit-names?
Great analysis.

You can wake up now.
On the contrary, I am off to bed.

***Earniel*** · 01-18-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

Wow Earniel - great job on the dullest part of the LOTR!

But seriously - I am impressed. Thank you for this summary.

Thank you for the praise.

I had actually looked it quite thoroughly last week, because I wasn't aware it had been originally cut from the discussion-list.

So I thought I might as well turn that effort into something constructive. Although I have very limited hopes for a long discussion on this topic.

Quote:

I have NEVER read them - and I don't think I will anytime soon.

Calendars or notes about languages are WAY more interesting< IMO. I will never understand why Tolkien included this stuff, while he had no place left for such stories as found in Unfinished Tales. Why not put the "Hunt for the Ring" or the "Disaster of the Gladden" or the history of Gal and Сel instead?

With me, it was quite the opposite: I found the family-trees much more interesting than the calendars, which mostly confused me. The trees are appropriate enough to be included in the appendices, I think, if only to show the relationships between the main Hobbit-characters. And it would be such a Hobbit-thing to do. But I sort of agree that the stories of UT you mentioned, could just as easily be included in the appendices. They certainly would have been appropriiate, only it would have been an even bigger book then!

Quote:

Why not put the family tree of the Line of Elros (UT) here instead?

I suppose he reckoned that that family tree could be discerned from the Appendix (A, I think) with the lists of kings. He may not have had all that info in a proper family tree.

Quote:

On the contrary, I am off to bed.

G'night!

Olmer · 01-19-2008, 01:35 PM

A very good, thorough work, Eärniel.
Although I have been looking through the Family-tree, I missed a lot of details, and you have presented us with some new revelations.

Quote:

What do you think became of Hildifons, who went adventuring? And do you think Gandalf had been at the source of his departure?
What do you think came of Isengar, who went to sea?

Alas! They perished as many other hobbit who had been persuaded by Gandalf to go “off into the Blue”, . There's no question about Gandalf's involvement“There was peace in Hobbiton for many years. Gandalf came seldom… He seemed to have given up trying to persuade even young Tooks to go off on mad adventures.”(HOME.”Treason of Isengard” The 4th phase).

Quote:

Are there any other family-trees that you think could have been included? Do you think Tolkien ever made others?

Agree with Gordis, since I'm interested in the origin of the Witch-King, I would very much like to see a more complete Line of Elros.

Quote:

Hobbits have long lives compared to other non-Dunedain Men. Do you think this means the Hobbits are descended from from Númenoreans or Dunedain, or is this merely coincedence?

I don't think they have anything with Numenorians, but in the “Unfinished Tales” and the HoME, XII, we are being informed that Men are remote ancestors of Hobbits and Druedains, which means The Hobbits are more related to Druedan and Atani, even if both of them have a short life span.
As I mentioned before, I think that Melkor was engendered the Hobbits by interbreeding Atani with petty Dwarves, Orcs and Druedain.

Quote:

Do you have any idea why Otho took the name Sackville-Baggins rather than just Baggins?

To pump-up his ego? Seems Bilbo was very well notorious as an owner of the Baggins estate. Otho wanted to give an impression that he owns not one, but two.

Gordis · 01-19-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

As I mentioned before, I think that Melkor was engendered the Hobbits by interbreeding Atani with petty Dwarves, Orcs and Druedain.

And I think it was Gandalf who had a hand in this. He needed a Ring-proof, sturdy and stealthy race. Look what he said:

Quote:

‘I can’t believe that Gollum was connected with hobbits, however distantly,’ said Frodo with some heat. ‘What an abominable notion!’
‘It is true all the same,’ replied Gandalf. ‘About their origins, at any rate, I know more than hobbits do themselves. -LOTR: Shadow of the Past

A slip of the tongue?

The Gaffer · 01-19-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

He drowned?

drownded

Groovy stuff about the Tooks though. Hadn't clocked that.

Olmer · 01-20-2008, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

And I think it was Gandalf who had a hand in this. He needed a Ring-proof, sturdy and stealthy race.

As a maia he ought to know a little bit more about any breeds of eruhini on ME.
But we will leave Gandalf off the hook, since Hobbit's origin goes to a much earlier time than the Dark Years, to the time when was not born even a conception of the Rings of Rower.
"...the beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days". (FoTR.Prologue) Obviously, he knew of the "spy project" and right after his arrival to ME was set on finding them.

Gordis · 01-20-2008, 06:19 AM

Maybe...

01-18-2008, 09:56 AM	#1
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	LoTR discussion: Appendix C This is only for the sake of completeness, since we earlier cut the Appendix C out of our discussion. And I might as wel put my 9000th post to good use. I am not an expert in unraveling family relations, so let's just point out some of the things I noticed or found striking. General impression In appendix C we get four family trees, corresponding with the families of the four Hobbits from the Fellowship. They are said to be only a selection out of many, which I took either meaning that there are more family trees in the Red Book, or that there have been people omitted from the trees for reason of space. I haven't quite figured out which one, but both make sense. My first reaction to it was that Hobbits did indeed hold great interest into maintaining family records. Each family tree goes back at least a few hundred years. Considering I draw a blank on even knowing the names and relations of my ancestors past my great-grandparents, that is quite a feat. A second thing that catches attention is their ages. Ages from between 90 or even a 100 years are very common, if not prevalent. If we look at the underlined names, which indicates whether the Hobbits were present at Bilbo's farewell party, we can see about half came from these four families. Which leaves about another 70 invited Hobbits with which Bilbo had no direct family-tie. Baggins from Hobbiton We're left a little bit guessing why the Baggins family had such influence or high reputation. With the Brandybucks and the Tooks, this is more clear as these families also control their own territory in the Shire. The Baggins-family does not appears to do so as well. The title above the family-tree says 'Baggins from Hobbiton', which seems to indicate most of them lived in that area, but there is no hint as to whether they owned large parts of it either. When I compared the names of the family-trees I found each had a distinct sort of name. All the males in the Baggins-family have names ending on -o, which gives some hilarious results: Bingo, Polo, Porto and my personal favourite: Dudo. I was kind of expecting a Dodo too. Aside from Dora and Prisca, all female names are plant-related. I was also struck by the fact that, when you look at the relation between Frodo and Bilbo in the Baggins family tree, they are not as closely related as one would have thought originally. You have to go back to Bilbo's grandfather Mungo and Frodo's great-grandfather Largo, who were brothers. In that respect family-ties between Bilbo and Otho Sackville-Baggins is closer. No wonder Otho felt cheated out of his enheritage! Coming to Otho, there is another peculiarity. Why the Sackville-Baggins combination? They are pretty much the only ones in the four family trees that keep a double last name. Only other one that I found is their cousin Falco Chubb-Baggins. Took of Great Smials The names of the Tooks strike a more medieval tone, which I tend to link with Germanic and Romanic names from continental Europe. Unlike most Baggins-names you can find Fredegars, Ferumbrasses or Everards in our own history. There's also more repetition of names. The female names have strong southern theme: Belladonna, Esmeralda, Donnamira, but have less connection to flowers or plants. Frodo and Bilbo are much closer related from the view of the Took-family. Bilbo's mother Belladonna was the sister of Mirabella, who's Frodo's grandmother and probably the one taking care of young Frodo when his parents died young. Seen from this family-relation, it makes more sense that Bilbo chose Frodo as heir. Under Hildifons, an uncle of Bilbo there's a little line: 'went off on a journey and never returned'. Would Gandalf have been involved, I wonder. He had been accused of getting young Tooks crazy enough to go adventuring. Would Hildifons have been one of them? Another uncle of bilbo's, Isengar, has the mention: 'said to have gone to sea in his youth'. A very unhobbitlike travel destination, it would seem. I think here's another most interesting untold tale to be had. With a family like that, no wonder Bilbo went on adventures of his own! From this family-tree we can also learn that Fredegar, also known as Fatty Bolger was related in some degree to Frodo, Merry and Pippin. Interesting. It also seems to be Fredegar's sister Estella that Merry ends up marrying. This I had never noticed before. Brandybuck of Buckland The Brandybuck-family definitely seemed fond of nicknames such as Deepdelver, Masterful and Scattergold. They are about the only ones that include them in their family-tree. The names of the Brandybucks also share similarities. Most male names tend to end on '-oc' or '-as' but very few are as retrace-able to our own history as the Took-names. I've only been able to identify Dodinas as Madoc as belonging to celtic mythology. The few female names are once again nearly all plant-related. Longfather-tree of Samwise Gamgee Like the Took-family, the Samwise's family also liked repetition of names, or very similar names. There are for example three different Halfreds, two Hamfasts, two Mays etc... But unlike the Tooks the Gardner's ancestors didn't bother with numbers. The names also are very similar. There are several names starting with 'Hal-' or 'Ham-' and several ending on '-wise'. Unlike the other families, who seem more tied to territory, Sam's ancestors seemed to move and relocate a lot. At least four different persons are mentioned to have moved from their original home. Discussion 1. Have you ever looked at the family-trees in detail on previous re-reads? Do you feel they could have easily been left out of the appendices? 2. Are there any other family-trees that you think could have been included? Do you think Tolkien ever made others? 3. Hobbits have long lives compared to other non-Dunedain Men. Do you think this means the Hobbits are descended from from Númenoreans or Dunedain, or is this merely coincedence? 4. Do you have any idea why Otho took the name Sackville-Baggins rather than just Baggins? 5. What do you think became of Hildifons, who went adventuring? And do you think Gandalf had been at the source of his departure? 6. What do you think came of Isengar, who went to sea? 7. Do you agree, or disagree with my analysis of the theme or source of the Hobbit-names? 8. Is there anything significant I missed to mention? You can wake up now. __________________ We are not things.

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01-18-2008, 06:24 PM	#2
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Wow Earniel - great job on the dullest part of the LOTR! But seriously - I am impressed.Thank you for this summary. 1. Have you ever looked at the family-trees in detail on previous re-reads? Do you feel they could have easily been left out of the appendices? I have NEVER read them - and I don't think I will anytime soon. Calendars or notes about languages are WAY more interesting< IMO. I will never understand why Tolkien included this stuff, while he had no place left for such stories as found in Unfinished Tales. Why not put the "Hunt for the Ring" or the "Disaster of the Gladden" or the history of Gal and Сel instead? 2. Are there any other family-trees that you think could have been included? Do you think Tolkien ever made others? Why not put the family tree of the Line of Elros (UT) here instead? 3. Hobbits have long lives compared to other non-Dunedain Men. Do you think this means the Hobbits are descended from from Númenoreans or Dunedain, or is this merely coincedence? Maybe they come from Elves or Dwarves - they have even longer lives then men. I think hobbit's stature precludes them from having Dunedain blood. Maybe some genetic experiment by ol Gandalf - if not by the Enemy? 4. Do you have any idea why Otho took the name Sackville-Baggins rather than just Baggins? ??? No idea. Maybe it sounds better? 5. What do you think became of Hildifons, who went adventuring? And do you think Gandalf had been at the source of his departure? I think Gandalf was behind all the hobbit adventures.And some might have ended very badly. 6. What do you think came of Isengar, who went to sea? He drowned? 7. Do you agree, or disagree with my analysis of the theme or source of the Hobbit-names? Great analysis. You can wake up now. On the contrary, I am off to bed.

01-20-2008, 06:19 AM	#8
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Maybe...