Book V; ch IX and X. The Last Debate and The Black Gate Opens

[crickhollow]

Thanks for your patience, guys, I was actually in the middle of posting this last night when I lost my internet connection.

V; ix The Last Debate

The Last Debate is a breath of calm before a final plunge into the last great battle in the war of the ring. The houses of Healing deals with the aftermath of the battle of Pelannor Fields, but in chapter nine the reader finally gets a chance to draw a breath. There is even quite a bit of lightheartedness, at the reunion of the remnant of the fellowship, though each is still burdened by what lies ahead. This is also Tolkien’s last chance to fill in any missing details, before bringing us to the climactic battle for the fellowship, and then plunging us into the dark and oppressive Mordor with Sam and Frodo (my least favorite part of the story, if truth be told).

1.characters and major plot points
The friendship of Legolas and Gimli (the most unlikely friendship of all) is highlighted again in this chapter: “Together the Elf and the Dwarf entered Minas Tirith, and folk that saw them pass marveled to see such companions”. Tolkien notes their differences in reference both to their oddity as a pair (when I was in high school I had a friend who was 4’11”, and I was 5’10”. My mom called us the long and the short of it), and to their strengths. Gimli promises to rebuild Minas Tirith to its former strength, and Legolas sees its need for beauty, and growing things.
The four friends meet again in the houses of healing, and recap their adventures for the benefit of one another, and also for those of us listening in. We’ve heard most of everything from Merry and Pippin’s points of view; now Legolas and Gimli tell of their journey through the Paths of the Dead, and the ensuing battles to the south.

The chapter closes on a more somber note: our fearless leaders, the Captains of the West, are strategies for battle and for brining aid to the ring-bearer. They agree to the counsel of Gandalf and Aragorn; to make themselves bait for the dark lord, in hopes of giving Frodo a chance to make it across the wasteland to Mount Doom. “We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless—as we surely shall, if we sit here—and know as we die that no new age will be.” – Gandalf

2.Favorite scenes/quotes

“Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.” My friend, Brandon, told me the same thing last summer, when we were having a conversation about life-goals, and figuring out what God has planned for your life. He said, “Do the good that’s in front of you”, and I love it, because I’m not a one-man revolution. I’m a solitary person, and the world’s problems can be very overwhelming. But I can do whatever’s good that’s in front of me.

“Up with your beard, Durin’s son!” -- Legolas

Anything Gandalf and Aragorn say during the last debate. I’m a sucker for death with valour speeches.

3.questions, comments for discussion.


1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? I haven’t read it since I was a kid. But it end up that she and the rest of her group are rescued, and they sail back to Crete, but when the king sees the ship with black sails on the horizon, he takes it as confirmation of his daughter’s death, and kills himself. I was never very excited about ancient mythology and history; this was just a story I remember from when I was a kid. Are there other instances where Tolkien borrows an old story and I just never noticed?

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city? To me it adds to his sort of Christ-figure status: “Foxes have holes; birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” Ioreth’s observation that the true king has the hands of a Healer, and the fact that there have been many prophecies concerning his coming all add to that effect. Now, obviously, I know this is not an allegory, and I know that Aragorn is a man of war (lots of correlations to the young Beowulf), and Jesus came as a lamb to the slaughter. I know that similes and metaphors only go so far before they break down. I’m just sayin’…

3. This chapter is the point when I begin to admire this new character to whom we’ve recently been introduced. We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil?

V; X The Black Gate Opens

1.Characters and major plot points.

Merry is left behind in Minas Tirith; he watches the rest of the Fellowship head toward Mordor, presumably to die in battle there. Pippin marches with the soldiers of Gondor, and the two friends are once more separated. After a long march The King and his host arrive at the gates of Mordor to challenge the dark lord. The Captains treat with The Mouth of Sauron, reject his terms of “peace”, and begin the final battle.

2.Favorite scenes/quotes.

“Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sue for his clemency you must first do his bidding. These are his terms. Take them or leave them!”
“These we will take!” said Gandalf suddenly. He cast asid his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place…These we will take in memory of our friend,” he cried. “But as for your terms, we reject them utterly.”

“But no! That came in his tale, long long ago. This is my tale, and it is ended now. Good-bye!” – Pippin

3. Questions, comments for discussion.

1. I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style?

2. I’ve re-read this chapter several times, and I just noticed the term “Morannon”. Is The Morannon referring to The Black Gate, or the field/area in front of the gate?

3. Do you think that The Captains of the West believed the ring to be in Sauron’s hands after seeing Frodo’s things in the hands of the enemy?

4. I can’t help comparing Merry’s and Pippin’s experiences in battle. Any thoughts on this one? Votes as to who’s the bravest? Like Merry, Pippin was the only hobbit on the battlefield, and he marked out and killed one significant (even to men--the troll struck down Beregond just before Pippin killed it) opponent.

[Beren3000]

Great job, crickhollow! Thank you

Originally Posted by crickhollow

He said, “Do the good that’s in front of you”, and I love it, because I’m not a one-man revolution. I’m a solitary person, and the world’s problems can be very overwhelming. But I can do whatever’s good that’s in front of me.

Nice

Originally Posted by crickhollow

I was never very excited about ancient mythology and history; this was just a story I remember from when I was a kid. Are there other instances where Tolkien borrows an old story and I just never noticed?

The example that most readily comes to mind is how Turin's tale is similar to that of Oedipus, from the play Oedipus Rex by Sophocles.

Originally Posted by crickhollow

This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?

Hmm...I never thought of it in terms of his Christ-figure status. I think he doesn't enter simply because he doesn't want to add to the chaos that's already struck the city by claiming to be the rightful king right there and then. Maybe he also felt that he had yet to earn the throne of Gondor through battle.

Originally Posted by crickhollow

Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point?

I think they wanted to arrive to the Black Gate unchallenged, without wasting their forces needlessly. You must also keep in mind that their "caution" doesn't mean secrecy: they were blowing horns and heralding Aragorn as the King of Gondor.

[Rían]

Good summary, crick!

Originally Posted by crickhollow

The Last Debate is a breath of calm before a final plunge into the last great battle in the war of the ring. The houses of Healing deals with the aftermath of the battle of Pelannor Fields, but in chapter nine the reader finally gets a chance to draw a breath. There is even quite a bit of lightheartedness, at the reunion of the remnant of the fellowship, though each is still burdened by what lies ahead. This is also Tolkien’s last chance to fill in any missing details ...

Good points - it was needed from a "technical" POV, so to speak - a rest for the reader, and a chance to fill in details.

I love this quote: “We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age..." To me, that shows the importance of doing what you believe to be right, even if you, personally, don't benefit or even KNOW that others will benefit.

But I can do whatever’s good that’s in front of me.

Another big theme in LOTR that I believe is a good one.

1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story?

Oh, yes I remember yelling in my head, "Don't do it! She's alive!!"

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?

I always kinda wondered about that, but I think it was mostly to keep the number of conflicts/unknowns down to a minimum, because if he DID enter the city officially, he would almost have to make a claim to the throne. But I see what you mean, too. I think it just shows the depth of his character - he's not in it for the glory.

3. This chapter is the point when I begin to admire this new character to whom we’ve recently been introduced. We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil?

*has a minor crush on Imrahil*
I can't recall much on Imrahil in HoME - maybe a sentence or two. But I don't have the LoTR HoMEs - I just have the Sil ones.

1. I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style?

I think time was important, and they realized that - the longer they can keep Sauron's eye on them, the better, and a kamikaze-style attack would be too quick.

[CAB]

Thank you for the excellent summary crickhollow.

I agree with Rian that time was an important issue as the army approached the Black Gate. They needed to hold Sauron’s attention as long as possible. Also if they are defeated and the Ring isn’t found then Sauron may begin to suspect the truth of their designs. Another reason for them to go slowly was their uncertainty regarding Frodo’s position. For all they know he could be preparing to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Doom at any point on their journey. I think this doubt means they were not completely hopeless.

Regarding another of your questions, I think Gandalf at least didn’t believe that Sauron had the Ring after seeing Frodo’s (and Sam’s) things in the hands of the Mouth of Sauron. The Mouth speaks of only one Hobbit and calls him a spy, making no mention of the Ring. Gandalf plays along and also only speaks of a single prisoner. It is difficult to guess what the other captains were thinking since they don’t say anything at this time.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Very well done crickhollow.

I actually just got done reading these chapters a few days ago, not for the first time of coarse. Anywho, here's my 2 pennies.

Originally Posted by crickhollow

1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story?

Didn't Agamemnon sacrifice his daughter to get a favorable winds in the Trojan Wars too? Off topic but it popped in my head.

Originally Posted by crickhollow

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?

Like Beren and Rian said, I think he didn't want to cause any more trouble, but; I think he also knew that if Frodo had failed and the Enemy had the ring, there really wouldn't be a point in claiming the throne cause he wouldn't hold it long. He had his doubts didn't he? I mean, Aragorn was a brave man and a natural leader but I don't think he wanted to give these people false hope.

Originally Posted by crickhollow

1. I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style?

Better to get it over quick, like a bandaid. Like CAB said, they weren't sure of were Frodo was and it was better to have Sauron watching them then searching for Frodo, which later on we find out he(Sauron) knew Frodo had escaped.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by crickhollow

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?

Actions speak louder than words.

Clearly, Aragorn has given thought to the situation and to his likely reception in Gondor.

By camping outside, yet entering as a Ranger of the North to do his healing thing, he gains acceptance by the people before even claiming the throne.

It shows a depth of insight in Aragorn which we get only occasionally. He is a man on a mission, a life-long mission. He has shown us he is bold and courageous, and now we see caution and prudence.

It brings to mind the debate between Aragorn and Gandalf in TTT (is it over possibly using The Palantir?) where Gandalf senses that Aragorn is tempted to test himself against Sauron directly. Aragorn says something like "who am I to be rash, who has waited all these years?", and yet he wrests the stone from Sauron's dominion. As a result, of course, he sees the Black Fleet and takes the Paths of the Dead.

Anyhow, the point is that these must be very difficult judgments to make. As readers, with a hobbit's perspective, we only get the actions and not the first-person narrative of that decision.

You have to admire how JRRT gives us a glimpse of such depths in a short description of a deed.

As a literary style, I think it is part of what makes these characters (Aragorn, Gandalf, etc) take on an air of heroism.

I never considered it Christ-like, but then, that's probably because I'm not a Christian

However, I totally agree that "do the good that's in front of you" is one of the excellent themes of LOTR. I also agree that Gandalf wasn't fooled by the mail-shirt. The Mouth gives it away by saying "whatever his mission was, it has failed".

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by crickhollow

Thanks for your patience, guys, I was actually in the middle of posting this last night when I lost my internet connection.

No problem

Originally Posted by crickhollow

3.questions, comments for discussion.


1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? I haven’t read it since I was a kid. But it end up that she and the rest of her group are rescued, and they sail back to Crete, but when the king sees the ship with black sails on the horizon, he takes it as confirmation of his daughter’s death, and kills himself. I was never very excited about ancient mythology and history; this was just a story I remember from when I was a kid. Are there other instances where Tolkien borrows an old story and I just never noticed?

Right story although some facts are not correct.
The King of Crete had the Minotaur and the maze where the Minotaur was kept.

Originally Posted by Minotaur Websites

When Minos heard of the death of his son, he became enraged, and gathered a great fleet together to avenge the murder. Although he was the effective ruler of the Mediterranean, quite a few of the Greeks fought on the side of Athens, or stayed neutral. The refusal of Aeacus, the king of Aegina, to join the Cretans was particularly galling to Minos. With all of his power, though, Minos was unable to defeat the Greeks until, in exasperation, he called on the aid of Zeus to avenge Androgeus. Greece was hit by famine and earthquakes, and the oracle at Delphi advised the Athenians to satisfy any demands that Minos made in return for peace. The demand was for a tribute of seven youths and seven maidens to be given every nine years, as sacrifice to the Minotaur, to which the Athenians reluctantly agreed.

Originally Posted by Minotaur Websites

Theseus forgot to change his sail from black to white. As the ship pulled in to port, Aegeus, seeing the black sail, assumed the worst, and lept from a precipice to his death in the sea that still bears his name.

[GreyMouser]

I always loved the linguistic interplay between Aragorn and the Master of the Houses of Healing.

And the joking betwen Aragorn and Merry- after all that action we're due for a bit of comic relief.

[Butterbeer]

Nice work Crickhollow!

yes, Grey Mouser (hello by the way) ... it's a nice change of pace and scale- brings it back to some heart warming close ups as it were so that we can scale the dramatic "wides" later...

Literaturely (sp?) speaking, it puts things in a context perhaps?

yes the pompous "learned man" and the garrulous (sp?) old wise woman iroeth and her folksy wisdom better than learned arrogance!

A favourite of mine too.


Christ like?
Not for me - nor i think for Tolkien - i think maybe an inner beauty or nobility or power, partly from ... (Eru) ... there seems also a parallel with the faith of faramir ..that he "knew he would come" .. etc ...

As CAB mentions power, beauty and nobilty etc coming from high lineages and from birth rights etc are a massive strand in LOTR and in Tolkiens work generally.

But i do not think JRR was drawing such a literal comparison to Christ - although it is an interesting question / reflection.


Best, BB

[crickhollow]

but I just wanted to respond to Butterbeer’s last comment

I didn’t mean to argue that Tolkien meant Aragorn as an allegorical Christ. Probably my definition of a Christ-figure in literature differs slightly from yours. I use the term loosely, and meant to describe any character with Christ-like qualities; I see them popping out all over the place. Usually a Christ-like character demonstrates sacrifice (like Frodo and his decision to take the ring to Mt. Doom, even though it certainly meant his death, or both Jean Val-Jean and Monseigneur Bienvenu at different points in Les Mis, to cite a non-Tolkien example), but also other characteristics. I'd still argue for Aragorn being a Christ-figure. Note the reference from the Gospel of Matthew (Mt 8:20) in my first post. And there are plenty of places in the Gospels (eg Mark 7:31-37) that show Jesus performing miracles and healing people, and then slipping off, saying, "don't tell anyone who I am." And then the people run off and tell everyone, “Hey, look, the Christ is here.” Which is pretty much what goes on in this chapter with Aragorn. And again, I’m not saying that Tolkien intends us to read Aragorn as a literal Christ-figure, but perhaps at least a literary one. You’d better believe a man of his religious beliefs and education knew all these stories, just as much as he knew the one about the King of Crete.

[Butterbeer]

well, it's good to see real and intelligent posting here in the discussion thread crickhollow.

I have always been a big proponent of allowing intelligent discussion on the fringes as it were of the main context of any chapter, and i DO hope this interesting sideline will be allowed to flourish.

It is my beleif that by doing so we honour the works of Tolkien far better than by vague praise.

he (JRR) was an intelligent man and creative, and indeed to some respects, a liberal minded man, but one who had a core of central beleif that was a solid plank in a fast moving stream, but one that always held him fast no matter where that stream or widening river took him but never bound him to any dogma his mind or soul was minded to reject.

Personally i think it pushes it somewhat to draw such a direct parallel (even, clarified as you are careful to make it ) between a christ-like figure and Aragorn or indeed any of Tolkien's characters.

It is an interesting idea for sure, and it'd be worthy to see where it leads, provided those that enter into the debate do so from a Tolkien perspective above and beyond any firmly held beleifs ... i only say that to mean that we have the better Tolkien debate rather than denigrating this worthy project into the realms of General messages and such

Tolkien had a very complex view on Christianity and the Church indeed from his upbringing ...James Joyce springs to mind vaguely here .. , and I, for one, feel, it perhaps does not tell the WHOLE story to assume the undeniable metaphors in his writings should be read so literally.

This is not CSS Lewis , whom he would argue Theology till the dawn broke with.

Yet ... we see in Arargorn, the healer, the self-scarificing, the foretold, if you will, many themes. For myself, i consider that this was written over many years and experiences, and that ever as a river runs so did his thoughts and ideas.

Regards,
BB

[The Gaffer]

I suppose we could add a few other things to potential parallels: he went out into the wilderness, didn't go in for much in the way of material wealth

But his decision to remain outside the city was political and important to the plot: so as to retain unity, be sensitive and respectful of the office of Steward, and, from the storyline's perspective, fulfil the prophesies ("Elfstone" being the main one I would say).

Am too uneducated to comment on the literary roots. In what ways does he resemble Beowulf, for example?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by crickhollow

1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? I haven’t read it since I was a kid. But it end up that she and the rest of her group are rescued, and they sail back to Crete, but when the king sees the ship with black sails on the horizon, he takes it as confirmation of his daughter’s death, and kills himself. [..]

I think you may be mixing myths, as the black or white sails seems to be a recurrent theme among mythology. The myth regarding Crete and the Minotaur went as Mithrand1r described earlier. Although I believe the King of Crete did have a daughter who fell for Theseus and helped in defeating the Minotaur in the labyrinth on Crete. She later fled with Theseus, but according to different versions died underway, was swept overboard or was deliberately stranded on an island. Due to her death or disappearance Theseus forgot to change the sails before getting home, resulting in the death of his father.

But in some versions of the tale of Isold and Tristram, the sail-incident recurs as well. And I remember seeing it in a Japanese fairy tale as well, although that may have been cross-contamination.

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?

I'd say it as a careful strategy. He finally got in Gondor after all these years and had shown the Royal Standard, but he just couldn't walk in and take over the show. Tradition was to be respected and he probably would wish to be properly crowned king, in peace time and have the steward properly hand over control of the kingdom. Since danger form Mordor still threatened, things like coronations would have to wait.

This chapter is the point when I begin to admire this new character to whom we’ve recently been introduced. We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil?

Sadly not much is found of Imrahil outside the LoTR-chapters on Minas Tirith, to my knowledge. There's some information how the elf-blood came into the line of Dol Amroth through Mithrellas, an Elf from the people of Nimrodel, but little else.

I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style?

As said before, there was really no use in rushing and risk being defeated too soon, before Frodo had a chance to complete his journey. They had to draw Sauron's gaze long enough and pose enough a threat (or a treat ) for Sauron to concentrate on them.

I’ve re-read this chapter several times, and I just noticed the term “Morannon”. Is The Morannon referring to The Black Gate, or the field/area in front of the gate?

Linguistically, as 'annon' stands for gate, I'm inclined to say it would have only stood for the gate. But if one makes a comparison to the Sirannon, the Gate-Stream of Moria, things change a bit. If Morannon, means Black Gate, shouldn't Gate-Stream then have been called Annonsir? (Although I readily admit, Sirannon sounds better IMO.) So I'm inclined to think names ending on 'annon', could refer easily as well to the area before the actual gate.

Do you think that The Captains of the West believed the ring to be in Sauron’s hands after seeing Frodo’s things in the hands of the enemy?

I suppose in the initial surprise, yes. But as CAB and others have said, I reckon Gandalf's questions were geared at finding out whether they had found the Ring and whether Frodo had been alone when captured. I would say he found out the Mouth of Sauron was mostly bluffing and acted accordingly. But I'm unsure whether the other of the party saw this as well.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by crickhollow

We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil?

As Earniel already mentioned, Tolkien talks about his ancestry in part two, chapter four of the Unfinished Tales. In the letters, we are lead to speculate that Imrahil may have taken leadership of Gondor when Aragorn was leading military expeditions.

3. Do you think that The Captains of the West believed the ring to be in Sauron’s hands after seeing Frodo’s things in the hands of the enemy?

Well, it does say that their hopes are gone. However, the Mouth of Sauron keeps babbling about spies and conspiracy, so, later on, the horror on their faces must be related more to their affection for the hobbit (as abstract as that may be), rather than knowingly facing a ring-ed Sauron. Moreover, as Gandalf told them, if Sauron regained the ring, his victory would be quite swift - it is doubtful they would have gotten to Morannon as they did or that he would entertain the idea of a parley, giving away any sort of "privileges".

[Jon S.]

This will surely not make me many friends here but in my view the last person I'd compare Aragorn to would be Jesus. If Tolkien had modeled Aragorn after Jesus, instead of having him march out, sword in hand, leading an army to oppose Sauron's evil he'd have had him let Sauron march unopposed straight into Minas Tirith while blaming the Gondorian establishment for his woes.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

the last person I'd compare Aragorn to would be Jesus.

Absolutely right.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

If Tolkien had modeled Aragorn after Jesus, instead of having him march out, sword in hand, leading an army to oppose Sauron's evil he'd have had him let Sauron march unopposed straight into Minas Tirith while blaming the Gondorian establishment for his woes.

I agree that Aragorn wasn't modeled after Jesus. As Tolkien said about Gandalf resembling Jesus (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Letter #181

Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write.

I believe the same applies to Aragorn, even more so. However, I believe you have discarded this idea for the wrong reasons. Jesus himself does not appear as a "defeatist", or someone relinquishing the ultimate fight - quite the contrary; he is an example of the ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil. I wonder how much will the mods allow us to pursue this line of debate

[Jon S.]

I have no desire to argue Christianity with you. I will only repeat that it seems to me a stretch indeed to equalize "ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil" to Aragorn. However, it's obviously a stretch you want to make so let me stop here.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I have no desire to argue Christianity with you. I will only repeat that it seems to me a stretch indeed to equalize "ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil" to Aragorn. However, it's obviously a stretch you want to make so let me stop here.

Perhaps you misunderstood me . I didn't disagree over the Aragorn-Jesus parallel (I stated I agree there isn't, you can read that in the beginning of my last post), but over what the Christian figure would do in a similar situation.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I agree that Aragorn wasn't modeled after Jesus. As Tolkien said about Gandalf resembling Jesus (emphasis added):

I believe the same applies to Aragorn, even more so. However, I believe you have discarded this idea for the wrong reasons. Jesus himself does not appear as a "defeatist", or someone relinquishing the ultimate fight - quite the contrary; he is an example of the ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil. I wonder how much will the mods allow us to pursue this line of debate

I agree with Landroval's point here about jesus, i was infact thinking the same thing.

Aragorn was not a jesus figure at all. But not because jesus was some meek pacifist.

Matthew 21:12-13

"12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

Jesus was to me the ultimate warrior when it was called for.

Aragorn was just a hero, not a messiah.