The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 1

[brownjenkins]

Many Meetings

Here begins the next phase of the Ring's journey. We find Frodo wakening in a comfortable bed in Rivendell, nearly musing as if all was a dream till he spots the richly-carved beams on the ceiling and hears the voice of the long-absent Gandalf. Yes! Gandalf, the wiley old wizard himself, bringing Frodo right back down to earth with his talk of how lucky he was to be here after the 'absurd' things he had done since leaving home. Another glimpse at the dry humor we see from the grey one from time to time. Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?

Frodo is somewhat surprised when Gandalf expresses so much knowledge of his travels. The wizard mentions that the hobbit spoke in his sleep, and also that "it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory". Possibly a rare glimpse at one of Gandalf's more mystical powers?

We learn that Frodo has been unconcious for four days and three nights, watched over by Sam and Gandalf (and Bilbo, we learn later), and mended by the healing powers of the Elf-lord Elrond. It seems that a fragment of the morgul-blade was lodged in his shoulder, and this piece was slowly working its way to his heart. If successful, this would have lead to a state that even Gandalf saw as beyond repair. Yet only the night before, Elrond was able to dislodge this splinter and remove the threat of Frodo 'fading'. A fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done.

Gandalf also gives Frodo a glimpse of what he might have become, a wraith tied to Sauron's will, to be tormented for keeping the ring from him. The greatest torment being the vision of the ruling ring once again on the Dark Lord's hand. Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?

Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

The wizard tells Frodo how the ring, when worn, places him half within the world of the wraiths. An unseen world which we learn that elves such as Glorfindel, who have seen the Blessed Realm, have a special awareness of. This would seem to point to the world of the spirit, or 'the soul'. Everpresent, yet unfathomable to the common man, hobbit, or even elf. A place where the Elf-lord shines like a star. This is a power which Gandalf sees as a force to use against the Enemy. He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

Gandalf mentions he was delayed, and hints of the story yet to come. Then he retells the events at the Ford of Bruinen. How Elrond was behind the flood, which the wizard embellished with a water-formed cavalry and rolling boulders. And how Strider and Glorfindel forced the steeds with the six Ringwraiths, who were not taken immediately, into the water where they most likely perished, though the wraiths themselves survived.

After some rest, Frodo is reunited with Sam and they set out to explore the Last Homely House. They meet up with Merry and Pippin who, to the dismay of Gandalf, expresses his fool-of-a-tookishness by naming Frodo 'Lord of the Ring'. This Pip shrugs off as usual wizardly gloom and doom, saying it is much to cheery in Rivendell for such worries. Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

At the sound of bells, they leave for a banquet where we get some marvelous descriptions of Glorfindel, Gandalf and master Elrond in their finest. We also see Arwen for the first time, who's beauty is likened to Lúthien, the fairest elvenkind has ever known. Frodo is seated next to Glóin of 'there and back again' fame, and we hear a few more hints of stories to come concerning Balin and events at The Lonely Mountain.

After the meal Frodo heads with Gandalf to the Hall of Fire, where music is played and stories told. To his surprise he meets none other than Bilbo himself there, composing a song he plans to sing for the elven revellers. Bilbo speaks of his travels back to Erebor and his retirement in Rivendell. He asks to see the ring again, but when Frodo produces it, a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo, and the old hobbit expresses his regrets to Frodo about the whole affair. If Gandalf had only known sooner, Bilbo would have brought it here long ago. Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?

The chapter closes with Aragorn returning, kept from the banquet due to a desire for information from Elrond's sons, and assisting Bilbo in finishing his song. One of the most beautiful and richly-detailed compositions in the trilogy, it speaks of the voyage of Eärendil and his ultimate fate.

More than anything so far in this rereading, this passage brought me back to my first experience with the Lord of the Rings. It was sometime around 1977, give or take. Having read the Silmarillion and most of the HoME books now, Bilbo's tune is just a snippit of the vast history of the First Age. But back then, when it was all so new, there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.



PS ~ see RÃ*an, i do have a SHIFT key

[Artanis]

Great intro brownjenkins!

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Frodo is somewhat surprised when Gandalf expresses so much knowledge of his travels. The wizard mentions that the hobbit spoke in his sleep, and also that "it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory". Possibly a rare glimpse at one of Gandalf's more mystical powers?

The capability of exchanging thoughts with others is not a power that only Gandalf has. The Elves has it too, and Men to a certain extent. I think the Frodo's qualities which allows him to be resceptible to foretelling dreams, also allows Gandalf to read his mind so easily. It requires openness and trust, or perhaps I should say faith, and it requires a clean conscience, that there is nothing to hide. So I think this is another expression of Frodo's good qualities.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Gandalf also gives Frodo a glimpse of what he might have become, a wraith tied to Sauron's will, to be tormented for keeping the ring from him. The greatest torment being the vision of the ruling ring once again on the Dark Lord's hand. Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?

I think it would be especially painful to Frodo because the Ring has been in his possession for quite a long time, he has been wearing it, and he is already feeling an ownership to it. Even Bilbo found it hard to give the Ring away.

That's all I can do right now ... more later ...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

PS ~ see RÃ*an, i do have a SHIFT key

Nice intro... congrats on the new keyboard!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Great intro brownjenkins.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

But back then, when it was all so new, there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

I thought this to when I read LotR for the first (or third) time before I had read The Silmarillion.

[BeardofPants]

I have to shamefully admit that for the first two or three readings, this was one of my least favourite chapters.

[Beren3000]

Thanks for a good intro, brownjenkins.
Here are my thoughts:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?

I think that these "absurd" things made Gandalf very worried and maybe angry with Frodo. But at this stage Frodo was still too weak to face any blame or reproach so the wizard settled for this light-hearted prod.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?

I agree with Artanis, the pain would have mainly come from Frodo's possessiveness of the Ring. But there's another simple reason, too. As you stated in your intro, brownjenkins, Frodo would be tormented for keeping the Ring from Sauron. Sauron would consider Frodo insolent and probably dangerous for having been able to ward off the call of the Ring and therefore would have tormented him endlessly.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

IMO, Gandalf never doubted that Frodo would accept the task. He probably didn't want fear of the Nazgul to over come Frodo's senses so as to make him do something rash that would harm the quest; but I don't think that Gandalf suspected that Frodo would quit. Speaking of fear, maybe this is another reason. As you can see in Attalus's sig, the Nazgul's power was greatest through fear. So if Frodo had set out already afraid of the Nazgul that may have caused them to have the upper hand and take the Ring from Frodo. (Olmer would have a different opinion )

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

And what of the other kind in the Shire?

I have always thought that this power is the hobbits' light-heartedness and carefree state. It is this, IMO, that makes them so immune to the Ring's influence (that would also explain why Frodo's immunity to the Ring lessens with time: he's slowly "losing his innocence").

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

It would seem so, since we have only Lothlorien for reference (but that's still upcoming ). The dwellings of elves in the Sil seem normal compared to Imladris and Lorien, and (IIRC) the only place described as "timeless" was the Halls of Mandos.

Thanks again, brownjenkins

[Elanor the Fair]

Thanks, brownjenkins.

I very much enjoyed reading your chapter summary. I really liked this part of the book. I felt it gave the reader (and the characters) a little bit of a breather!! This is the first time we come into an elven realm in the book I like the mood it portrays.

I've posted just a few thoughts....(i tried to post them last night but I couldn't get on to the server....

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Gandalf, the wiley old wizard himself, bringing Frodo right back down to earth with his talk of how lucky he was to be here after the 'absurd' things he had done since leaving home. Another glimpse at the dry humor we see from the grey one from time to time. Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?

The type of humour displayed by Gandalf is a typical way of dealing with serious issues. A bit of gentle teasing often covers up deeper concerns and issues. Tolkien alludes to this in another part of the book...
"But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place."

Yet only the night before, Elrond was able to dislodge this splinter and remove the threat of Frodo 'fading'. A fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done.

That wholesome Shire air and good, nourishing food sure have their advantages!!!

Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

Probably both. I think Gandalf feared that Frodo would be so frightened that he would not be able to thnk rationally if he knew the full extent of the danger. Its like Frodo said..
"I was mortally afraid of course; but if I had known more, I should not have dared even to move."

This is a power which Gandalf sees as a force to use against the Enemy. He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

What is the power in the Shire? That goodness, truth and beauty have a power all of their own. That not all power is held by "powerful" people but also by simple people.

Bilbo speaks of his travels back to Erebor and his retirement in Rivendell. He asks to see the ring again, but when Frodo produces it, a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo, and the old hobbit expresses his regrets to Frodo about the whole affair.

I've always wondered about the gollum-like appearance that comes over Bilbo. Does this really happen or is this just how Frodo perceives him, as Frodo becomes more in the power of the Ring?

This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

I agree with this, and for this reason LoTR is still my favourite of all Tolkien's books.

[brownjenkins]

thanks for the kind words everyone... my first go at it

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

The type of humour displayed by Gandalf is a typical way of dealing with serious issues. A bit of gentle teasing often covers up deeper concerns and issues. Tolkien alludes to this in another part of the book..."But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place."

this is kind of how i see it... a way for him to calm people's fears by taking their minds off of them to an extent

that quote says it perfectly

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins[SIZE=1

PS ~ see RÃ*an, i do have a SHIFT key[/SIZE]

I can't believe it! *thud*

[Rían]

Great intro, brownie! Wonderful capitals!

Q: Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?

I don't know if there's a purpose behind it. I know that when I'm working on something difficult with someone, we tend to use some humor like that just to defuse some of the tension. I think it might be something similar. I think Gandy was probably aware of some of Frodo's great danger at times, and is now joking about it in a head-shaking "I just can't BELIEVE it!" way.


Q: Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?

It seems like the worst thing for a Ringbearer to bear is to see someone else with the Ring, altho that was working slowly on Hobbits, and Bilbo was even able to give it away with the help of Gandalf. That bit later on in the story about how Frodo saw Sam as a grasping Orc really illustrated this well. Perhaps even if Frodo had lost it at this early stage, if he was not "healed" somehow, the power it had over him would get worse and worse over the years.


Q: Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

I think he told Frodo enough, and realized, like Gildor, that knowing too much would incapacitate him.


Q: What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

It's their genes (little joke from another thread... )

This made me think of a line from Milton's Paradise Lost (note - this was written almost 400 years ago, and "awful" has the meaning of "awe-inspiring because of power", NOT "yucky".) Satan is talking to an angel, and the angel is rebuking Satan for his evil plans, and Milton wrote: "Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is ..."

Great line - there's a power in goodness that evil can't touch.


Q: Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

There's an interesting essay in one of the HoME (History of Middle Earth) books that talks about different time flows for mortals and elves ... I hope one result of this thread is that people will investigate the books beyond LOTR


Q: Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?

I think Gandalf was probably telling the truth - he trusted Saruman for a long time, then only confirmed his suspicions when the fire-letters showed on the Ring, altho he had enough concern to place a watch around the Shire.


Q: ....there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

Yes, I just love the layering and the mystery and the sense of stories upon stories ... I wondered, too, about why it was audacious for Bilbo to sing that ... For me, though, it was the Gil-galad song that really gripped me and gave me my love of the First Age ... *wanders off, chanting "Gil-galad was an elven king ..."

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Another glimpse at the dry humor we see from the grey one from time to time. Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?

I think it was Gandalf easing away an awkward situation as Frodo was not fully recovered yet.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Frodo is somewhat surprised when Gandalf expresses so much knowledge of his travels. The wizard mentions that the hobbit spoke in his sleep, and also that "it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory". Possibly a rare glimpse at one of Gandalf's more mystical powers?

No. I think that Frodo had talked in his sleep and Gandalf had news from the hobbits and Strider. He may have even spoken to Tom Bombadil as I thought it was a bit wierd when in the next chapter he knew so much about him.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done.

I think wound has the same effect as the Ring on hobbits. They were so carefree (for the most part) that such things took longer to work on them and they were better at fighting it.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

Gandalf also gives Frodo a glimpse of what he might have become, a wraith tied to Sauron's will, to be tormented for keeping the ring from him. The greatest torment being the vision of the ruling ring once again on the Dark Lord's hand. Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?

It's having the Ring taken from you. Gandalf says that if he were to take it from Frodo by force then he would first break his mind. Bilbo gave the Ring away, he did it by his own free will.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

As said before. If Frodo knew exacly what they were and what they could do he would have possibly frozen by fear and have been caught. I wouldn't say he was hiding information as I think he would have told Frodo if he had insisted but he just wasn't telling him everything. I think that is why Gildor did not say anything for if Gandalf had not then he shouldn't.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

The wizard tells Frodo how the ring, when worn, places him half within the world of the wraiths. An unseen world which we learn that elves such as Glorfindel, who have seen the Blessed Realm, have a special awareness of. This would seem to point to the world of the spirit, or 'the soul'. Everpresent, yet unfathomable to the common man, hobbit, or even elf. A place where the Elf-lord shines like a star.

Would Gandalf have seen Frodo when he had the Ring on for wasn't he created in Valinor, though he didn't abide there for long, by the Valar.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

This is a power which Gandalf sees as a force to use against the Enemy. He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

Power to fight things others couldn't. There free will and carefreefulness had a power which no other race had.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

Gandalf mentions he was delayed, and hints of the story yet to come.

This is when it shows me how much power Gandalf had. When Frodo replies 'You!' Gandalf says that even he, Gandalf the Grey had others more powerful it showed me two things. One, Gandalfs true power and capability and two, that these other must be very powerful.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

After some rest, Frodo is reunited with Sam and they set out to explore the Last Homely House. They meet up with Merry and Pippin who, to the dismay of Gandalf, expresses his fool-of-a-tookishness by naming Frodo 'Lord of the Ring'. This Pip shrugs off as usual wizardly gloom and doom, saying it is much to cheery in Rivendell for such worries. Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

If Pippin had said that in Frodo's room while e was awake conversing with Gandalf I exprct he would have dismissed it with a 'no he's not', but as seen as Frodo had recovered Gandalf reverted back to telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

At the sound of bells, they leave for a banquet where we get some marvelous descriptions of Glorfindel, Gandalf and master Elrond in their finest.

This is the first time I really see Elrond as the wise loremaster he is. In the Hobbit I though of him as an old elf with grey hairs who just happened to own alot of land. This description of his face being neither young or old but riddled with memories, both sorrows and glad ones, really showed his majest and glory.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

After the meal Frodo heads with Gandalf to the Hall of Fire, where music is played and stories told. To his surprise he meets none other than Bilbo himself there, composing a song he plans to sing for the elven revellers. Bilbo speaks of his travels back to Erebor and his retirement in Rivendell. He asks to see the ring again, but when Frodo produces it, a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo, and the old hobbit expresses his regrets to Frodo about the whole affair. If Gandalf had only known sooner, Bilbo would have brought it here long ago. Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?

I don't think it is just Frodo who percieves him like this as it says the whol room goes quite before Bilbo speaks again.

Originally Posted by brownjnkins

The chapter closes with Aragorn returning, kept from the banquet due to a desire for information from Elrond's sons, and assisting Bilbo in finishing his song. One of the most beautiful and richly-detailed compositions in the trilogy, it speaks of the voyage of Eärendil and his ultimate fate.

During this bit it becomes clear that Aragorn is no ordinary man and he has some unique and important lineage.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

Beren has already expressed my thoughts about this - I think Gandalf didn't want to give the Black Riders an advantage by imposing fear into the Hobbits.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves?

Ah, this reminds me of a certain battle in the Elder days, where it is told that the Orcs fled before the Elves, whose eyes still had the light of Aman. It also reminds me of a certain son of Fëanor whose "spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returns from the dead", and the Orcs fled from his face. It is another expression of the symbolism in allof Tolkien's work. The evil thrives in darkness and fear the light. Glorfindel, who presumably had not only lived in Aman but had also been dead and reincarnated, would have a powerful spirit, which make him appear as shining with a clear light.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

And what of the other kind in the Shire?

Not pure goodness I think, there were bad Hobbits too. I think Gandalf may have been referring to the naivity among the Hobbits, their unwillingness to realise that evil exists in the world.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

The sense of timelessness may be enhanced in Imladris by the Elven Ring that Elrond bore, though in a lesser extent than in Lórien. I don't think Bilbo felt the same when he was in Mirkwood, Legolas' home. RÃ*an, Legolas himself mentions how time floats differently for Elves:

`Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

The chapter closes with Aragorn returning, kept from the banquet due to a desire for information from Elrond's sons,

And what information, I should like to know, was so important to him that he was willing to stay away from a banquet where Arwen was present? He could have spoken to the twins later on, but apparently they had something to tell that he must hear at once.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

One of the most beautiful and richly-detailed compositions in the trilogy, it speaks of the voyage of Eärendil and his ultimate fate.

And it is remarkable that this poem was made by Bilbo. No wonder he was popular among the Elves. At this incident we also get a glimpse of an average Elf's view of mortals. Lindir and Bilbo have an interesting and humorous conversation:

'It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals' said the Elf.
'Nonsense, Lindir,' snorted Bilbo. 'If you can't distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined. They're as different as peas and apples.'
'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different,' laughed Lindir. `Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.'

Ahh, those Elves! Why so little interest in other people? Finrod was the only one ...

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Artanis

And it is remarkable that this poem was made by Bilbo. No wonder he was popular among the Elves. At this incident we also get a glimpse of an average Elf's view of mortals. Lindir and Bilbo have an interesting and humorous conversation:

That conversation is my favorite part in the whole chapter (like BoP, this is one of my least favorite chapters ) The way Tolkien's Elves are so lighthearted and funny! It is something I haven't seen any other writer capture. One way they're powerful and wise, and the very next moment they're laughing and joking. It's a nice duality.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

During this bit it becomes clear that Aragorn is no ordinary man and he has some unique and important lineage.

that's a good point too... it's easy to forget (when you've read the books a million times) how shady aragorn (strider) is up until this point

[Artanis]

In this chapter there are so many small hints of what is to come later on:
The green stone that Aragorn felt important should be in Bilbo's poem about Eärendil, I suppose that was the Elessar.
More hints about the Arwen-Aragorn romance.
Gandalf seems to be convinced that Frodo has not finished his task yet.
Arwen's glance to Frodo on the evening of the feast. I wonder if she already then saw him as the only hope she had to marry Aragorn, and looked into his heart.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I thought that the green stone was a Silmaril.

[Nurvingiel]

Excellent summary Brownie! (It took me a while to pick up on the capital jokes there ) Capital capitals!

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Many Meetings
If successful, this would have lead to a state that even Gandalf saw as beyond repair. Yet only the night before, Elrond was able to dislodge this splinter and remove the threat of Frodo 'fading'. A fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done.

This part makes me wondered why Gandalf chose Frodo as a Ringbearer. Even though circumstance made Frodo the most convenient, Gandalf could have selected someone else, had he felt the need. Did Gandalf just have a good feeling about Frodo, which he doubts in this scene? Or did Gandalf simply not realize the true nature of the Ring until it was too late? Or maybe a combination of these factors.

Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

Sometimes there are dangers you are better off not knowing. This comes up later in the book too. However, I think sometimes it's a mistake to hold back information like that. I can't think of a good example at the moment though, unless Gandalf originally didn't mention the Nazgul or Gollum (though he may not have been aware of their true threat and/or existence in Sadow of the Past).

And what of the other kind in the Shire?

I think this refers, at least in part, the the presence of Tom Bombadil, Elves, and other magical people older than the Shire, and living undetected by most of its residents.

This Pip shrugs off as usual wizardly gloom and doom, saying it is much to cheery in Rivendell for such worries. Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

I always assumed the dwelling of people who regard 144 years the way mortals do 1 year would have a timeless quality.

At the sound of bells, they leave for a banquet where we get some marvelous descriptions of Glorfindel, Gandalf and master Elrond in their finest. We also see Arwen for the first time, who's beauty is likened to Lúthien, the fairest elvenkind has ever known. Frodo is seated next to Glóin of 'there and back again' fame, and we hear a few more hints of stories to come concerning Balin and events at The Lonely Mountain.[/b]

I really enjoyed the connection to the Hobbit here, which has implications for Legolas and Gimli later.

Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?

Maybe due to those unseen powers, Gandalf felt that it was as safe there as anywhere, at least for a time. Also, Gandalf later points out that Sauron had little knowledge of the Shire. All he had was what he got from torturing poor old Gollum.

More than anything so far in this rereading, this passage brought me back to my first experience with the Lord of the Rings. It was sometime around 1977, give or take. Having read the Silmarillion and most of the HoME books now, Bilbo's tune is just a snippit of the vast history of the First Age. But back then, when it was all so new, there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

The richness and detail in Tolkien's works is fascinating to uncover, I agree. Having only read the Sil once since my rereadings of LOTR, there is still a great deal of mystery surrounding this song. I love Aragorn's line about Bilbo having "the cheek to compose verses of Eärandil in the house of Elrond" or something like that. This shows that Aragorn is humorous too, not just the hard-core Ranger we met in Bree. Maybe he only really felt like he could relax in Rivendell (and later Lothlorien), which is most likely very wise.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

This part makes me wondered why Gandalf chose Frodo as a Ringbearer. Even though circumstance made Frodo the most convenient, Gandalf could have selected someone else, had he felt the need. Did Gandalf just have a good feeling about Frodo, which he doubts in this scene? Or did Gandalf simply not realize the true nature of the Ring until it was too late? Or maybe a combination of these factors.

I think that Gandalf knew the true nature of the Ring better than any (with the possible exception of Elrond and Galadriel). He also knew an awful lot about hobbits, more perhaps than they knew about themselves. This could link in with the magic of another sort n the Shire. Maybe that could mean the hobbits themselves.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Many Meetings
...He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

Well... don't want to give away the ending ( ), but their love for the Shire sure kept Frodo and Sam going at later crucial moments - didn't it. I think that's sufficient enough. As their 'home' - it had power to inspire them to try and keep it safe.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I thought that the green stone was a Silmaril.

No, if you read the poem carefully you will see that there are an emerald, and a Silmaril.