An Open Letter/apology

[Lady Midnight]

I'm starting a new thread because several things came up on the last thread that I feel I should've responded to but was unable to as I wasn't online last night and the thread was closed in my abscence. .Mods please do not close this thread as I am trying to apologise here. I know it may look as though I'm just stirring things up again but that really isn't my intention.

Some of you are not going to like what I'm about to say but I ask that you bear with me on this and read the whole post because there is a point to what I'm saying and it's not all bad, honestly.

Before I begin let me point something out to you that explains to a great extent where I'm comming from. I have certain rather unorthodox religious and moral principles regarding honesty and plain speaking. To put it in a nutshell I am beholden to the Truth which essentially means that I cannot lie not in thought, word, nor action. The bottom line is that I call it as I see it. I am bound by the principles I hold to be upfront with people and to speak my mind no matter what the consequences. I consider anything else to be somewhat akin to lying.

I believe that it is more disrespectful NOT to say what you feel than anything insulting you could possibly say. There are better ways of saying things, true, I'm not always polite about it, no. But then I'm human.

The crux of the matter here is that "truth" is a subjective term because there are two kinds of truth: absolute truth and truth according to a particular point of view When I complained about the thread being locked I was acting on the truth according to my POV in that I honestly believed the thread should not have been locked and that the locking of my thread could've been handled better.

When the mods responded they were acting on the truth according to their POV. We disagreed because our "truths" contradicted each other.

But the absolute truth that comes out of all of this is that no-one has been entirely above reproach here. Yes it is true to say that the mods could've handled things better......but then again so could I.

Was I out of line? Strictly speaking yes but only up to a point. I cannot be blamed for not knowing about the no advertising rule or indeed the existence of the other thread. I haven't actually posted here long enough to be aware of every little deatail of this board. I'm human for crying out loud!!! I don't posess some kind of superhuman power! Sorry.

As far as re-posting my thread goes, yes I was out of line and I did indeed know I was. But I was very angry, insulted, in severe pain from a spinal injury at the time and I overeacted. I felt that morally speaking I had the right to re-post it even if the Board Policy did not give me such a right. It was the principle of the thing you see. I'm sorry.

Ok so now I shall address each of the comments from the other thread in turn:

Sister Golden Hair I'm sorry but that's just not the way I'm used to doing things. On the Slipstream if I did that I'd have the cyber equivalent of being hung, drawn and quartered. There we're supposed to deal direct with the mod concerned. I've pointed out that it's not always practical to do that and there have even been some unusually sensitive issues, way too unpleasant to go into, where it just wasn't possible but sadly no-one took any notice. Please excuse me for assuming that it would be the case here, it's just that it's not always easy when you're used to a particular way of doing things to suddenly do them differently.

Darth Tater I'm sorry but whilst the rules regarding spamming are certainly very clear, evidently the rule about advertising is NOT or this situation would never have arisen. About the rest of your post I have no comment except to ask if you think you're helping matters by flaming me? BTW I also tend to show respect to people who .treat me with respect as my comments to bmidler later on in this thread clearly indicate. Oh and I have respect for the rules when they make sense and the way in which they are applied is fair.

CBG the bottom line here is that no I didn't know I broke the rules when I started that thread. I really DID NOT know about the existence of the other thread! How could I have known? I've not been here for some considerable time and therefore hadn't seen it!!!!! In any case I wasn't to know that my thread would be considered as similar to the other thread. As I told you it deals with a completely different form of writing, not to mention a great deal of other stuff that wasn't even remotely connected with writing in any way at all.

As for the advertising question well since bmidler had to point out to me on my last thread how my post could be considered advertising, I think it's pretty obvious that I didn't realise that it was advertising when I posted it.

The other boards are relevant for the very reason you suggest that they are not. I mention them to illustrate how I am used to doing things differently and following different rules.

Now when I PMed you the first time I was polite. All I did was ask you nicely why you had locked my thread. The very least you could've done was to PM me back saying something along the lines of:

"No sorry but the thread stays locked. Whether or not it's similar to the other thread it's still advertising and we don't allow that here. If you want to put that kind of notice on the Board it would be better if you used your sig."

It wouldn't have killed you and could've saved a lot of aggravation. As it was you couldn't even be bothered to respond to a simple, polite request. It was insulting and I was considerably angered by it. You behaved churlishly and I repaid in kind. I should not have done so. Two wrongs do not make a right. Now I've apologised here, I no longer really care whether or not you apologise but you might want to think about the moral implications if you don't.

bmidler All I have to say to you is that a good mod or Admin is a rare thing in my experience. It's a crying shame there are not more like you. Thank you. As for having a Suggestions forum that is a very good idea. The other boards I post on have found them very useful.

emplynx I will post wherever I want to for as long as I wish. I will speak my mind wherever I want to. Similarly if I believe someone's authority can be called into question I will do so. If I believe the rules to be wrong I will break them. For the reasons outlined at the start of this thread I have no other choice. My beliefs and principles are that important to me. They are not part of some religion where I go to church on Sunday and pay lipservice to some God, they make up a state of being and affect every aspect of my life no matter how trivial or insignificant.

Strawberry Thankyou. By now you hopefully should've realised that, whilst this may not be as important as people dying throughout the world, it is important to me, and just why exactly that is.

So that's it in a nutshell. I apologise for my unwitting infraction of the rules and for my behaviour. But I hope people will understand that my earlier infraction was in no way deliberate and my later ones were due to the fact that I felt really very pushed.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The other boards are relevant for the very reason you suggest that they are not. I mention them to illustrate how I am used to doing things differently and following different rules.

Well then, how flexible are you? The rules are the rules nomatter where you go. Would you go to another country whose laws are different from your country's and disobey them? Probably not. The rules on this board don't change because Lady Midnight says they do. It is the way it is. It states clearly in the posting policies, that advertising is prohibited. How much more clearer does it have to be. The trouble I think is that alot of people hit that agree buttom when they register without reading the PPs, and then they are upset when they are repremanded.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well then, how flexible are you? The rules are the rules nomatter where you go. Would you go to another country whose laws are different from your country's and disobey them? Probably not. The rules on this board don't change because Lady Midnight says they do. It is the way it is. It states clearly in the posting policies, that advertising is prohibited. How much more clearer does it have to be. The trouble I think is that alot of people hit that agree buttom when they register without reading the PPs, and then they are upset when they are repremanded.

As I have said I was unaware that my thread was advertising. In my posts to bmidler on my previous thread I stated that I considered advertising to be promoting something for monetary gain.

I have never suggested that the rules should change to accomodate my wishes I am merely asking people to try to be a little patient with me whilst I get used to a new way of doing things. After all I am still fairly new to the Board. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to ask.

Why do people persist in claiming that I actually knew I shouldn't be posting the thread in the first place? I have said more times than I care to remember that I very definitely did not. The fact is it was a genuine mistake on my part , one which I have apologised for. I can't understand why people are behaving as though it was deliberate.

[Wayfarer]

Sheesh. Give the N3wbi3 a break. If I can go easy on people who ought to know better (no offense) but act stupid anyway, so can you. ]: )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Sheesh. Give the N3wbi3 a break. If I can go easy on people who ought to know better (no offense) but act stupid anyway, so can you. ]: )

Um, are you speaking to me? Listen, I have not been mean to Lady Midnight, and being a newbie doesn't have much to do with following or not following rules wayfarer. I am just trying to make her understand that by handling things the way she is, especially in open forum like this makes it more difficult for her and us. A moderating decision was made, and that should have been the end of it. If there was an objection to the decision, then it should be handled in a way that does not invite the entire community to take sides and cause even more problems.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Um, are you speaking to me? Listen, I have not been mean to Lady Midnight, and being a newbie doesn't have much to do with following or not following rules wayfarer. I am just trying to make her understand that by handling things the way she is, especially in open forum like this makes it more difficult for her and us. A moderating decision was made, and that should have been the end of it. If there was an objection to the decision, then it should be handled in a way that does not invite the entire community to take sides and cause even more problems.

Yes I did actually want my objection to be handled privately which is why I PMed CBG. He chose to ignore this, I'd had a rough couple of weeks and my temper was already somewhat frayed. In a fit of anger and because at the time I didn't see that there was any other choice I went public. Clearly it was the wrong thing to do, I understand that now and I've apologised for it. You do not have to keep telling me this.

{{{{{{Wayfarer}}}}}} thanks

[Comic Book Guy]

We can't ignore the rules because you don't know them, it's your responsibility to know and the follow the rules.

I didn't ignore your PM, I just choose not to reply to it because I didn't need to reply to your PM.

[Wayfarer]

SGH: What I mean is, sometimes newbies (wheter to tolkien or to a message board) can seem really dense, but it's only because of naive ignorance.

You know, the type of people who come in and ask silly questions like 'is LOTR an allegory?' or 'when is beta?' Some of them are deliberately stupid, but others are quite innocent. It's important that we learn to seperate the two, so we can know who to let alone when we go out looking for blood. ]: )

In any case... I think this is being handled rather well by both sides, and I have no doubts you'll work it out. I just had to interject with a bit of acerbic observation.

[Darth Tater]

Lady Midnight, you have over 100 posts. In my opinion you should certainly know the rules by now simply by being around the board. Even if that's a bit extreme though, there are many other times you SHOULD have been made aware of this.

The most obvious is when you registered. To register at this board you MUST click a button saying you agree with the rules of the board. The following is stated in those rules:

"spamming/flooding (posting the same messages over and over again or in multiple forums)" is not permitted. "Advertising other sites is not allowed either, except for in one designated thread. If it pertains to the discussion, you can post a link; we just don't want you to start a thread merely to advertise your site, since this clutters up the board." (A link is given to that thread in the actual document.) "The administrators and moderators of Entmoot reserve the right to close/edit/delete any post made on this board."

You agreed with that document, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Now, did you actually read it? Judging by your post I must assume you did not. Well then, you can't blame us for not making you aware of these rules, can you?

Now, when you first visit this board, before registering, very near the link to register is a link to the board's FAQ. Anyone farmiliar with the net (and you obviously are considering the number of boards you are a member of) knows it's wise to read a boards FAQ before joining. Entmoot's contains the following:

"Can I search the board? [use the search]
You can search for posts based on username, word(s) in the post or just in the subject, by date, and only in particular forums. To access the search feature, click on the "search" link at the top of most pages. "

So you should have been aware of the search feature.

Then there's another issue of common sense. No two boards are exactly the same, you should know that. So before you post, it's a good idea to read the board a bit! Get farmiliar with how things are run, the way the administration makes decisions, what kinds of things are acceptable.

Finally, I've never considered closing a thread to be a big deal. I've closed hundreds here at Entmoot. I've recieved very few complaints, and the others I recieved were polite, and sent because the person didn't understand why their thread was closed. Now, CBG stated very clearly in your thread why it was closed. IMO he definately gave enough information. I've never seen someone get so upset at the administration for following the rules in what I think was simple situation. You broke a basic rule that we don't flip out about. We just close the threads, no big deal. Move along, move along. But you've made this into a huge thing, and I really don't understand why.

You say you have the right to post wherever you want, and if you dissagree with a rule, you'll break it. I'm sorry, but that's not how the net works. This is not a democracy, quite frankly. Ben and I pay for the upkeep of this site. We have gathered a group of individuals to help us enforce rules that were set up for the board. Our policy is simple. Again, from the agreement you sign when you register:

"Depending on the severity of the offense, one or more punishments may be administered. A warning will be given out to minor offenders. The next steps are 48-hour bans, permanent banning, and as a last resort, IP banning. However, we may move directly to IP banning depending on the circumstances."

Basically, we enforce our rules. If someone breaks them repeatedly, and there is no sign they will stop, they are removed from the community. It takes a lot to make us go all the way to a permanent ban, but it happens. So at the moment, you have the freedom to post here. But if you choose to break all the rules you dissagree with, as someone who pays to keep this board here and works hard to keep it running smoothly, I have the right to choose not to let you be a part of this community.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
We can't ignore the rules because you don't know them, it's your responsibility to know and the follow the rules.

I didn't ignore your PM, I just choose not to reply to it because I didn't need to reply to your PM.

Yes but people just cannot be expected to automatically know every little quirk and custom of the Board the moment they register. They should only be expected to know the Policy itself not how mods and Admin apply it. That sort of knowledge only comes with experience gained from posting on the Board. Consequently whilst it would be correct to assume that I knew or should have known that advertising was not permitted, to expect me to know straight off that my thread constituted advertising is just plain ridiculous!

Wayfarer has the right of it here. Occasionally newbies make mistakes. It comes with the territory I'm afraid.

Regarding my PM it is not so much a question of you needing to reply to it but more a case of my needing to recieve one. Had you the decency to send a reply this whole sorry mess might've been avoided.

It's not that I'm trying to shift the blame here. I am at fault. I could've counted to 10, taken deep breaths, contacted another mod. Instead I let RL problems affect an online situation and my temper get the better of me. But you really could've handled the situation better y'know.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You do not have to keep telling me this.

Well, in this instance, I wasn't telling you, I was telling Wayfarer. Obviously that is not the case though , because we are still having this argument.

[StrawberryIcecream]

SOMEONE SHUT THE THREAD! SOMEONE SHUT THE THREAD! THIS IS TURNING OUT LIKE THE FIRST ONE! FORGET ABOUT IT PLEASE! *calm* *breath*.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Lady Midnight, I respect your position, and even understand it to a point. I accept your apology for myself. You have to understand that your defiance of policy by not accepting the posting policies that you should have been aware of before you made your first post, and whatever is bothering you in RL does not warrent special consideration for the problem at hand. I think it would be in everyone's best interest to drop this now and start fresh. You made a mistake. You acted, and then apoligised. Now, familiarize yourself with policy and perhaps this can be avoided in the futere.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by StrawberryIcecream
SOMEONE SHUT THE THREAD! SOMEONE SHUT THE THREAD! THIS IS TURNING OUT LIKE THE FIRST ONE! FORGET ABOUT IT PLEASE! *calm* *breath*.

Well, so goes the way it is when you air your problem in open forum. The whole point is, you shouldn't be involved, but that is what happens when people choose to take that route.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by Darth Tater
Lady Midnight, you have over 100 posts. In my opinion you should certainly know the rules by now simply by being around the board. Even if that's a bit extreme though, there are many other times you SHOULD have been made aware of this.

The most obvious is when you registered. To register at this board you MUST click a button saying you agree with the rules of the board. The following is stated in those rules:

"spamming/flooding (posting the same messages over and over again or in multiple forums)" is not permitted. "Advertising other sites is not allowed either, except for in one designated thread. If it pertains to the discussion, you can post a link; we just don't want you to start a thread merely to advertise your site, since this clutters up the board." (A link is given to that thread in the actual document.) "The administrators and moderators of Entmoot reserve the right to close/edit/delete any post made on this board."

You agreed with that document, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Now, did you actually read it? Judging by your post I must assume you did not. Well then, you can't blame us for not making you aware of these rules, can you?

Now, when you first visit this board, before registering, very near the link to register is a link to the board's FAQ. Anyone farmiliar with the net (and you obviously are considering the number of boards you are a member of) knows it's wise to read a boards FAQ before joining. Entmoot's contains the following:

"Can I search the board? [use the search]
You can search for posts based on username, word(s) in the post or just in the subject, by date, and only in particular forums. To access the search feature, click on the "search" link at the top of most pages. "

So you should have been aware of the search feature.

Then there's another issue of common sense. No two boards are exactly the same, you should know that. So before you post, it's a good idea to read the board a bit! Get farmiliar with how things are run, the way the administration makes decisions, what kinds of things are acceptable.

Finally, I've never considered closing a thread to be a big deal. I've closed hundreds here at Entmoot. I've recieved very few complaints, and the others I recieved were polite, and sent because the person didn't understand why their thread was closed. Now, CBG stated very clearly in your thread why it was closed. IMO he definately gave enough information. I've never seen someone get so upset at the administration for following the rules in what I think was simple situation. You broke a basic rule that we don't flip out about. We just close the threads, no big deal. Move along, move along. But you've made this into a huge thing, and I really don't understand why.

You say you have the right to post wherever you want, and if you dissagree with a rule, you'll break it. I'm sorry, but that's not how the net works. This is not a democracy, quite frankly. Ben and I pay for the upkeep of this site. We have gathered a group of individuals to help us enforce rules that were set up for the board. Our policy is simple. Again, from the agreement you sign when you register:

"Depending on the severity of the offense, one or more punishments may be administered. A warning will be given out to minor offenders. The next steps are 48-hour bans, permanent banning, and as a last resort, IP banning. However, we may move directly to IP banning depending on the circumstances."

Basically, we enforce our rules. If someone breaks them repeatedly, and there is no sign they will stop, they are removed from the community. It takes a lot to make us go all the way to a permanent ban, but it happens. So at the moment, you have the freedom to post here. But if you choose to break all the rules you dissagree with, as someone who pays to keep this board here and works hard to keep it running smoothly, I have the right to choose not to let you be a part of this community.

Ok I have over 100 posts but most of those are probably RP and until recently I haven't actually posted here for some time. Aside from this my knowledge of Board Policy is one thing but as I keep telling people I had no idea that Policy would be applied in that way. There was no way I could know that my post was advertising. In fact the first I knew about this was when bmidler was obliging enough to take the trouble to explain it to me, something which I greatly appreciated. I'm actually a very reasonable person when people behave reasonably with me.

Yes I was aware of the search facility but I fail to see how this is relevant. I'm baffled here as to what exactly I'm supposed to have searched for. Are you saying that I should've done a search to see if there were any threads on writing just in case? Well maybe so but how many people would actually think of that?

You do make a valid point about reading the board before registering. However I doubt that this would've told me very much in this case. Not enough happens here to give me a clear idea of how the board is run. I shall bear it in mind for the future though.

I suggest you re-read CBG's post. Because he was not clear about why he was closing the thread. He only mentioned that it was deemed to be similar to the other writing thread. He said nothing at all about it being advertising. It might've been an idea if he had.

I did try to discuss this with him politely but obviously he wasn't willing to do that.

Why am I so upset over this? Well for starters because I feel as though I'm being treated like a Troll over what is essentially just a stupid mistake. I am not a Troll, just a harmless ecentric with a short fuse and some rather unusual beliefs. Whilst it was a bit naughty of me to re-post that thread I really feel that locking it and editing my post to ask me if I wanted a 24hr ban was a little OTT. I have been posting on the 'Net for about a year and a half now. In that time I have never had even so much as a warning. And it's not that I'm anything less than my usual outspoken self one other boards, but simply that people eventually get used to my quirks and find a better way of communicating with me.

I'm annoyed because I think the way my re-post was dealt with was a little heavy-handed and unwarranted to say the least. I'm annoyed because I didn't get an explanation why me first thread was locked when I politely asked for one and I'm annoyed because of the things that were said to me on my earlier thread when I publicly asked for the explanation I didn't get earlier. Your own remarks to me being a case in point there.

Look my religion teaches me that there is no authority except that of the Divine. That authority takes precedence over all other authority anywhere, even on something as insignificant as a message board. Consequently my religion also teaches that if a moral principle is involved, it is acceptable to break even the laws of the country in which you live. So if I believed there was just cause for me to do so I would break the laws of my home counrty, or indeed any other country for that matter. Similarly if I feel that there is just cause for me to do so I would break the rules of this or indeed any other board. But there would have to be some very unusual circumstances for me to do that, ordinarily I'm pretty much a law-abiding member of the boards I frequent in the same way as I'm more or less a law-abiding citizen of the country in which I live.

The thing is you're going to have to deal with that because it's not something I can change. it's who I am, no choice in the matter. All you have to do when dealing with me is remember I have a somewhat unusual way of looking at things, remain reasonable, and explain things if I need them explaining. Do that and we'll get along fine.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, in this instance, I wasn't telling you, I was telling Wayfarer. Obviously that is not the case though , because we are still having this argument.

Oh ok, my mistake. Sorry.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by StrawberryIcecream
SOMEONE SHUT THE THREAD! SOMEONE SHUT THE THREAD! THIS IS TURNING OUT LIKE THE FIRST ONE! FORGET ABOUT IT PLEASE! *calm* *breath*.

No it's ok, don't worry about it please. I won't let it get that bad I promise. I do think it's better to try to reach some kind of common ground rather than for me to build up resentment. That's all I'm trying to do here.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Lady Midnight, I respect your position, and even understand it to a point. I accept your apology for myself. You have to understand that your defiance of policy by not accepting the posting policies that you should have been aware of before you made your first post, and whatever is bothering you in RL does not warrent special consideration for the problem at hand. I think it would be in everyone's best interest to drop this now and start fresh. You made a mistake. You acted, and then apoligised. Now, familiarize yourself with policy and perhaps this can be avoided in the futere.

Ok firstly thankyou for showing some sympathy here. I'm not saying that my circumstances excuse my behaviour, merely trying to illustrate why I did the re-post because I wouldn't want people to think badly of me and that I was trying to cause trouble with all of this.

Secondly I do think it would help if everybody just accepted the fact that this whole situation was badly handled. I'm not asking anyone to say that CBG was wrong in locking the thread, it's his decision after all, although if I'd been in his shoes I might not have locked the thread. I'm just asking people to agree on the following points whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision:

a/ CBG should've been more specific about why he was locking the thread. The advertising factor really should've been mentioned there and then.

b/ Maybe it might've beeen an idea to have replied to my PM. Although had CBG done a/ this wouldn't have been necessary.

c/ Instead of threatening me with a 24hr ban it might've been better if someone had simply locked the thread, deleted the post and then had a quiet word with me about it in PM.

Any one of those would've avoided all of this. Something to think about there.

If people would be willing to meet me halfway on those 3 points I'd be happy to let the matter drop.

[Darth Tater]

You're never gonna listen to reason, are you? You're gonna keep going at this until we say you were right and we were wrong, or until we ban you. Well, guess which one ain't gonna happen.

You wouldn't look like a troll if you had just left it when your thread got closed. But no, you had to repost the thread, a clear violation of the rules. I'll repost what I already showed ya:

"spamming/flooding (posting the same messages over and over again or in multiple forums)" is not permitted. "Advertising other sites is not allowed either, except for in one designated thread. If it pertains to the discussion, you can post a link; we just don't want you to start a thread merely to advertise your site, since this clutters up the board." (A link is given to that thread in the actual document.) "The administrators and moderators of Entmoot reserve the right to close/edit/delete any post made on this board."

Why did I threaten you with a 24 hour ban? It's quite simple really, if you posted that thread again I was going to give you a 24 hour ban! Would you rather have had me do it without any warning?

If you keep saying you're planning on breaking the rules, we'll have to consider a pre-emptive ban to avoid a big fiasco, which, from the way you talk, it sounds like your planning! Now, you want to stop sounding like a troll? Drop the subject! Learn to move on! Accept that you were wrong! Accept that the administration has control over the rules, not you! Quite frankly, grow up!

[StrawberryIcecream]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, so goes the way it is when you air your problem in open forum. The whole point is, you shouldn't be involved, but that is what happens when people choose to take that route.

what? are you saying im sticking my nose in where its not wanted? well im sorry. Its just for some reason the words 'OPEN apology' led me to believe i could post here.