If you were a Númenórian...

***Jonathan*** · 04-30-2003, 06:03 PM

I've just re-read Akallabêth and it made me think a little.
If you were a Númenórian, what would you do and what would you think of Death and the Ban of the Valar (the ban that prohibbited the Númenóreans from sailing to Aman)?

Manwë told the Númenóreans that the death of mortals was a great gift from Illúvatar. Unlike the elves the mortals were not bound to the world, they were free to leave it after death. If you were a Númenórean, would you see this as a good thing? Or would you prefer being immortal like the elves and live in Illúvatar's world forever?

If you'd accepted death, Illúvatar's Gift of Men, would you try to stop the Númenóreans from reaching Aman?

If you wanted to become immortal, would you yourself want to set your foot in Aman, rejecting the Ban of the Valar?

Falagar · 04-30-2003, 07:00 PM

I would have accepted death, as I have done in real life. It's no use fearing it, it won't go away (as the Númenóreans should have realized).

Balrog_of_Morgoth · 04-30-2003, 07:09 PM

It is the nature of men to be fascinated with death, and the desire to avoid it.

With immortality being known to exist for some, just on the edge of sight from your shores, it would be inevitable that there would be jealousy.

I think that the temptation would have been too great, especially over a long lifespan. I would have given in as old age approached and attempted to discover the undying gift.

I don't think, however, that I could have been persuaded to worship Morgoth. At least I hope that I would not be! Who knows? Sauron was a very powerful and persuasive being in the Second Age.

Artanis · 05-01-2003, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
If you wanted to become immortal, would you yourself want to set your foot in Aman, rejecting the Ban of the Valar?

A Man would not become immortal by just going to Aman. Death is a part of Man's nature, and only Eru could take the gift back, which he never did, except perhaps in the case of Tuor.

Therefore it was folly of the Númenóreans to try to break the Ban. They were of course misguided by Sauron, but Sauron's lies was founded on grounds that were already there, in the restlessness and the pride of the people of Númenóre.

If I was a Númenórean, what would I do? It's impossible to say. It would be easy to be tempted by the closeness of the Undying Lands, especially when old age catch up on you. On the other hand, doesn't death often come as a relief to old people? If you have had a good life and used your days well, what could be better than to go to rest when you have become tired?

Tolkien wrote a piece where he explored what would happen if a Man were allowed to live in Aman. It's in HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring. Very interesting. It says "Man would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.'"

BTW, nice title Jonathan

Linaewen · 05-02-2003, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
On the other hand, doesn't death often come as a relief to old people? If you have had a good life and used your days well, what could be better than to go to rest when you have become tired?

True, but that they had to end their life, especially after how good it was, could have also been reason for them to be jealous of the Quendi.

Hmm. *thinking of what I want to say* Can't really get it across. Someone else will post and I will just agree with them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
BTW, nice title Jonathan

Scandinavian pride! Yah!

Lalaith · 05-02-2003, 12:57 PM

I think I would suffer when the elves wouldn't come to numenor anymore. But I'd love to live on this island.

***Fat middle*** · 05-02-2003, 01:41 PM

I'm moving this to the Sil. forum, since Akallabêth is in that book.

Almie · 05-03-2003, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
If you were a Númenórian, what would you do and what would you think of Death and the Ban of the Valar (the ban that prohibbited the Númenóreans from sailing to Aman)?

Interesting topic. And it's difficult to answer. The closeness of the Undying Lands could have been tempting, and it's Man's nature to desire life and avoid death. And the Númenóreans were already given a longer than usual life span.

Ban of the Valar seemed to have a religious/spiritual meaning, people accepted it as a religious truth. But when Sauron came to Númenor, the people seemed to have lost its previous spirituality. Sauron taught the Númenóreans to rebel agaist the Ban, and contradict it. His influence was strong during those later days. Also, people were taught to fear and hate the Elves.

So what would I have thought of the ban? It's impossible to say. Their situation was so different back then. But I can somewhat understand why they rebelled in the end. Sauron's influence is not to be underestimated there.

durin's bane · 05-03-2003, 05:35 PM

I'd have accepted death. The more you run from it, the more you'll fear it and the harder it'll try to take you down.

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-03-2003, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Almie
Interesting topic. And it's difficult to answer. The closeness of the Undying Lands could have been tempting, and it's Man's nature to desire life and avoid death. And the Númenóreans were already given a longer than usual life span.

Ban of the Valar seemed to have a religious/spiritual meaning, people accepted it as a religious truth. But when Sauron came to Númenor, the people seemed to have lost its previous spirituality. Sauron taught the Númenóreans to rebel agaist the Ban, and contradict it. His influence was strong during those later days. Also, people were taught to fear and hate the Elves.

So what would I have thought of the ban? It's impossible to say. Their situation was so different back then. But I can somewhat understand why they rebelled in the end. Sauron's influence is not to be underestimated there.

Good post, Almie.

You've inspired me to dig out my Letters:

Balderdash! Can't find anything directly related!

***Jonathan*** · 05-04-2003, 12:49 PM

I feel like I must answer my own questions.
I'm afraid of death. I'm afraid of it in real life, and I would surely be afraid of it if I was a Númenórean.

If I saw a pretty good chance to become immortal, I think I would take it. I would've sailed to Aman and broken the Ban of Valar.

But I could easily be persuaded to accept my destiny, to accept that I would die sooner or later. With the right arguments, I would understand that breaking the Ban of Valar is the wrong thing to do. Not only would Eru and all the Valar be dissappointed with me, but I guess the elves would be pretty upset too. And I would see an endangered relationship with the elves as a very bad thing.

But death is bitter, immortality sounds sweet.

Artanis · 05-04-2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
But death is bitter, immortality sounds sweet.

You are corrupted by evil!

Maedhros · 05-04-2003, 05:46 PM

From the Published Silmarillion:AKALLABÊTH

Quote:

But the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn came up out of the deeps of the sea and encompassed Avallónë and all the isle of Eressëa, and the Eldar mourned, for the light of the setting sun was cut off by the cloud of the Númenóreans. And at last Ar-Pharazôn came even to Aman, the Blessed Realm, and the coasts of Valinor; and still all was silent, and doom hung by a thread. For Ar-Pharazôn wavered at the end, and almost he turned back. His heart misgave him when he looked upon the soundless shores and saw Taniquetil shining, whiter than snow, colder than death, silent, immutable, terrible as the shadow of the light of Ilúvatar.

I too would have gone to Aman. Who could have turned back? It is human nature to seek the unknown. With that vision, I could never turn back.

***Earniel*** · 05-05-2003, 02:34 PM

Mmm, a difficult question.

As me, as I am now, I would accept death. For having immortality would be a burden instead of a gift. And maybe because I know that immortality is unatainable. Why reach for something like that and waste what years I've got on it?

However if I was a Númenorean, I think I would long for immortality. The fear of death was widely spread in Númenor and weighed heavily on the people there. I don't think I'd had had enough willpower to withstand it. Another important factor is that the immortal lands were within hand's reach so to speak. They were still in the world, quite tempting. The fact that it was forbidden to go there would only increase the wish to go there. Death would seem like a curse and only darkness would lie beyond. I would definately have tried with all my might to get into fleet of Ar-Pharazôn.

Unless I was actually raised in Rómenna, the last stronghold of the Faithful. The atmosphere might have been different there and I might have thought like the Faithfull. I might still desire immortality but know it was not to be and be more or less content with it.

Strongbow · 05-15-2003, 01:32 PM

its deep in human nature to want to avoid death.

in our world where we all die, we accept it (most of us do atleast)

but i think if i was in numenor and i knew about elves and valar and maiar being immortal, i would try to achieve the same, rash as it may be

Tar-Elendil · 05-16-2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
I've just re-read Akallabêth and it made me think a little.
If you were a Númenórian, what would you do and what would you think of Death and the Ban of the Valar (the ban that prohibbited the Númenóreans from sailing to Aman)?

Manwë told the Númenóreans that the death of mortals was a great gift from Illúvatar. Unlike the elves the mortals were not bound to the world, they were free to leave it after death. If you were a Númenórean, would you see this as a good thing? Or would you prefer being immortal like the elves and live in Illúvatar's world forever?

If you'd accepted death, Illúvatar's Gift of Men, would you try to stop the Númenóreans from reaching Aman?

If you wanted to become immortal, would you yourself want to set your foot in Aman, rejecting the Ban of the Valar?

"the grass is always greener on the other side" This can be said for both sides- the Numenoreans and the Elves. The elves, in some instances, looked upon their immortality as a grief. Men, in most cases, looked upon their mortality as a curse.

I'd have to say I would remain with the Faithful, and not break the ban. After all, seeing what the Valar had done in previous events (ie the battle of wrath) would have made me realized their power. But I cannot say that with certainty; the lies and malice of Sauron was deep in the Numenoreans.

Anglorfin · 06-02-2003, 10:40 PM

If I were a Numenorean I would have probably become discontent with my way of life after Sauron's capture. I just want a place that is quiet and peaceful and I'd like to think that I'd notice the upheaval that Sauron was causing and want to steer clear of BOTH sides. I probably would have sailed off to seek Gil-Galad or Cirdan and ask to remain with them. Nothing really spectacular, and avoiding the debate of death as a gift or as a punishment at all costs.

Ruinel · 06-03-2003, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
...I'm afraid of death. I'm afraid of it in real life, and I would surely be afraid of it if I was a Númenórean.

If I saw a pretty good chance to become immortal, I think I would take it. I would've sailed to Aman and broken the Ban of Valar.
....But death is bitter, immortality sounds sweet.

I believe all Atani are afraid of death. They fear what they do not know and since other Atani have not returned to comfort those they left behind, they fear it more. What lies beyond this life? That is what they fear. It is the doubt that makes turns them from the Gift of Eru and makes them seek what was mercifully kept from them: immortality, or rather seeming immortality.

If I could give you what my people possess I would give it freely, if not hesitantly. You do not know the weariness of long life, you have not experienced it for thousands of years and the burden and grief of memory past. Yet it remains your hearts desire. I envy you and your short days, as you envy the Elves and their long lives.

Anglorfin · 06-07-2003, 01:02 PM

No fair Ruinel! You're supposed to answer like a Numenorian. At least pretend that you're mortal for now.

Ruinel · 06-07-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anglorfin
No fair Ruinel! You're supposed to answer like a Numenorian. At least pretend that you're mortal for now.

oops.. sorry... ok, here goes, but don't expect much. I have no practice being Atan.

ahem...
"I am afraid of death. I want the gift of immortality that was given to the Elves. It isn't fair and I am envious of them. Why should they be blessed by Ilúvatar and not us? I would give all I had for it. Even travel to Aman and demand it from Manwë himself. And are we not also the Children of Ilúvatar? Does he not love us as much? We have a right to it as much as the Elves."

how was that? (I hope I didn't offend any of the Atani.

)

04-30-2003, 06:03 PM	#1
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	If you were a Númenórian... I've just re-read Akallabêth and it made me think a little. If you were a Númenórian, what would you do and what would you think of Death and the Ban of the Valar (the ban that prohibbited the Númenóreans from sailing to Aman)? Manwë told the Númenóreans that the death of mortals was a great gift from Illúvatar. Unlike the elves the mortals were not bound to the world, they were free to leave it after death. If you were a Númenórean, would you see this as a good thing? Or would you prefer being immortal like the elves and live in Illúvatar's world forever? If you'd accepted death, Illúvatar's Gift of Men, would you try to stop the Númenóreans from reaching Aman? If you wanted to become immortal, would you yourself want to set your foot in Aman, rejecting the Ban of the Valar? __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

04-30-2003, 07:00 PM	#2
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I would have accepted death, as I have done in real life. It's no use fearing it, it won't go away (as the Númenóreans should have realized). __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

04-30-2003, 07:09 PM	#3
Balrog_of_Morgoth Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Parkersburg WV Posts: 110	It is the nature of men to be fascinated with death, and the desire to avoid it. With immortality being known to exist for some, just on the edge of sight from your shores, it would be inevitable that there would be jealousy. I think that the temptation would have been too great, especially over a long lifespan. I would have given in as old age approached and attempted to discover the undying gift. I don't think, however, that I could have been persuaded to worship Morgoth. At least I hope that I would not be! Who knows? Sauron was a very powerful and persuasive being in the Second Age. __________________ Fingolfin: The Mighty Elven Lord who challenged Morgoth to single combat! Last edited by Balrog_of_Morgoth : 04-30-2003 at 07:11 PM.

05-02-2003, 12:57 PM	#6
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	I think I would suffer when the elves wouldn't come to numenor anymore. But I'd love to live on this island. __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

05-02-2003, 01:41 PM	#7
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	I'm moving this to the Sil. forum, since Akallabêth is in that book. __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

05-03-2003, 05:35 PM	#9
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	I'd have accepted death. The more you run from it, the more you'll fear it and the harder it'll try to take you down. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

05-04-2003, 12:49 PM	#11
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	I feel like I must answer my own questions. I'm afraid of death. I'm afraid of it in real life, and I would surely be afraid of it if I was a Númenórean. If I saw a pretty good chance to become immortal, I think I would take it. I would've sailed to Aman and broken the Ban of Valar. But I could easily be persuaded to accept my destiny, to accept that I would die sooner or later. With the right arguments, I would understand that breaking the Ban of Valar is the wrong thing to do. Not only would Eru and all the Valar be dissappointed with me, but I guess the elves would be pretty upset too. And I would see an endangered relationship with the elves as a very bad thing. But death is bitter, immortality sounds sweet. __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

05-05-2003, 02:34 PM	#14
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Mmm, a difficult question. As me, as I am now, I would accept death. For having immortality would be a burden instead of a gift. And maybe because I know that immortality is unatainable. Why reach for something like that and waste what years I've got on it? However if I was a Númenorean, I think I would long for immortality. The fear of death was widely spread in Númenor and weighed heavily on the people there. I don't think I'd had had enough willpower to withstand it. Another important factor is that the immortal lands were within hand's reach so to speak. They were still in the world, quite tempting. The fact that it was forbidden to go there would only increase the wish to go there. Death would seem like a curse and only darkness would lie beyond. I would definately have tried with all my might to get into fleet of Ar-Pharazôn. Unless I was actually raised in Rómenna, the last stronghold of the Faithful. The atmosphere might have been different there and I might have thought like the Faithfull. I might still desire immortality but know it was not to be and be more or less content with it. __________________ We are not things.

05-15-2003, 01:32 PM	#15
Strongbow Hobbit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 36	its deep in human nature to want to avoid death. in our world where we all die, we accept it (most of us do atleast) but i think if i was in numenor and i knew about elves and valar and maiar being immortal, i would try to achieve the same, rash as it may be __________________ =========== "And with a bit of luck... This mans life was ruined..." ~ Duke Raul ===========

06-02-2003, 10:40 PM	#17
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	If I were a Numenorean I would have probably become discontent with my way of life after Sauron's capture. I just want a place that is quiet and peaceful and I'd like to think that I'd notice the upheaval that Sauron was causing and want to steer clear of BOTH sides. I probably would have sailed off to seek Gil-Galad or Cirdan and ask to remain with them. Nothing really spectacular, and avoiding the debate of death as a gift or as a punishment at all costs. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

06-07-2003, 01:02 PM	#19
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	No fair Ruinel! You're supposed to answer like a Numenorian. At least pretend that you're mortal for now. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."