The Lord of the Rings Discussion Ch 11 and 12

[Linaewen]

A Knife in the Dark and Flight to the Ford

These chapters have nearly everything, from Rangers to Trolls, Elves to Black Riders. While much of it is so suspenseful it puts you on the edge, there are also lighter moments with laughter amidst the peril. The only thing it may not have is romance, though we do get a hint of this with Strider’s ‘There [in Rivendell] my heart is’.

The scene is set with a vivid account of the terror generated by the Black Riders’ attack at Crickhollow. We begin to understand the true might of these Dark servants of Mordor, and the danger they pose to the hobbits, especially Frodo.

We also see how the search for the Ring begins to impact on life in the Shire. For the first time in a century, the Horn-call of Buckland is sounded. This reminds me of the earlier Hobbit history, with the battles between the Hobbits and Orcs and wolves. There is a hint of how else the daily lives of Hobbits will be changed by the power of Mordor. ‘Sauron would deal with them later’ the Black Riders think as they flee.

The Hobbits are not entirely safe at Bree either, though. Their bedrooms, although not slept in, are ravaged and the stabled horses are gone. If I remember correctly, wasn’t there some discussion about who actually attacked, since Tolkien doesn’t explicitly state that it was Black Riders?

The troupe has a new and invaluable addition, Bill the Pony. It makes me proud when Sam bids Bill Ferny to ‘put your ugly face out of sight, or it will get hurt’ and throws the apple at him.

On they go, through the Midgewater Marshes and so forth, to Weathertop. We still fear for the hobbits, and Strider warns them of the many spies of Mordor. He mentions “other spies more evil than they [the birds] are”. Is he referring to other animals here, maybe wolves or other Dark creatures? Or something else?

We also get a glimpse of the former might of the Men of the West, with their once magnificent structures now in ruins. Strider tells us some First Age history with the story of Lúthien and Beren.

The power of the Ring is made evident by Frodo’s inability to resist putting it on. When he strikes at the Rider’s foot, he cries ‘O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!’. What makes him say those certain words?

Though we can clearly see how detrimental the evil wound Frodo sustains is on him, we can also see how reluctant he is to let it show and how truly strong he is, especially as a Hobbit. Strider does his best to help alleviate Frodo’s pain and we see what kind of skills and talents he possesses for travelling in the wild, as a Ranger.

Then another lightening moment comes when the hobbits stumble across some trolls. The image of Strider poking a troll (a stone one or not) is hilarious. The atmosphere of tension and fear is lessened with the reminder of Bilbo’s own adventure.

And then we meet a beloved character of many a Mooter, Glorfindel. Through him we observe the healing powers and keen senses of the Elven race. I would have liked to seen more from him in the book.

The chapters end with one of the best scenes, IMO, in LotR. “ By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair…you shall have neither the Ring nor me!’” Is that not one of the best quotes? We feel a sense of awe for Frodo’s strength and his concern for his friends, when he is unwilling to mount Glorfindel’s horse, fearing that it would put his friends in danger.

I have to quickly refer to the film here, because I know how angry many of us are at how PJ killed this scene in the movies, with his addition of that awful quote by Arwen, and his deletion of the display of strength of Frodo and Glorfindel. The imagery and suspense in this part is incredible, and we feel terrified for Frodo, especially since there’s no wonderful Arwen to protect him.

Finally, we see that there are ‘good’ powers that may be stronger than that of the Dark Riders, with the flood’s onset. For the time being, we wonder who caused such a spectacular event. (Though, admittedly, we find out the answer very soon in the next chapter ). Before you read on, who do you think does it?

[Linaewen]

So that’s my “summary”. There was just so much I didn’t want to leave out in my beloved chapters. Some discussion points:

Fatty Bolger
That’s the last we see of Fatty for a while, which I think is kind of a shame because I did like him. It was necessary to have someone remain at Crickhollow, but I think it would have been good if Tolkien included a bit more about him.

Frodo’s Dreams
Frodo dreams of the noise of wind and galloping hoofs just as the attack on Crickhollow is occurring. Where do these come from, and what is their purpose?

The Moon
The word ‘moon’ is used a number of times through the chapter. What is its significance? I notice on the third page of ‘A Knife in the Dark’ that Tolkien actually uses the words ‘the Moon’, which I found interesting because it makes Arda more like our own world, doesn’t it, with one Moon, considering Arda has a very different geographical structure to our own earth.

Ferny’s ‘Squint-eyed companion’
At this point in time, we don’t know who he is, but who did you think he was at this stage? What did you think happened to him?
Incidentally, while talking about Ferny, he calls Strider ‘Longshanks’. Why?

Other senses
“Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell”. What senses is Strider talking about? Feeling? Hearing? Or something else?

Strider’s warnings
Numerous times Strider warns the hobbits to not mention the name of the wraiths or other Mordor-related things, especially when they are so close by. Why is he so concerned about this, why does it endanger them?

Glorfindel
He mentions to Strider that when he came across the Riders, they withdrew from him. Combined (or even individually?), wouldn’t they have the power to take on the Elf Prince? If so, why withdraw? I was thinking that for the time being they were focused on attaining the Ring and so did not bother with fighting Glorfindel

[Rían]

Such a great coupla chapters! Thanks for the great summary, Lin! There is so much variety in these 2 chapters, as you said - it's amazing!

I just peeked in on the way to bed, so I'll post more tomorrow - I'll just make one comment :

Glorfindel! *sigh*

[Haradrim]

wow very cool. Hey if you want to help out check out the LOTR Guide thread on this page. That was very good. I really enjoyed it.

[Elanor the Fair]

Very well done, Linaewen,
When I read your summary, I realised how much of the hobbits' journey was covered in these two chapters!!!
I will post some maps and comments on the weekend.

[Beren3000]

Great job, Linaewen! Thanks for your effort.
Here are my thoughts:

-Frodo's dreams:
I don't know about the dreams he had in Bombadil's house, but I think that this particular dream came to him because he was carrying the Ring and in that way he was somehow aware of the Nazgul and what they did. But that sounds a bit farfetched to me

-The squint-eyed man:
As far as I recall, my first impression of him was that he was a spy of Mordor; a resident of Bree somehow corrupted or coerced into spying on the lands around the Shire. Even after having watched the FOTR movie before reading the book and knowing how Saruman was evil, I never thought that this man could be Saruman's spy.

-Strider's warnings:
I don't understand this myself, however it appears to be a popular theme in fantasy stories with religious parallels. In The Wheel of Time, it is said that if you said the Dark One's true name (Shai'tan), you brought his attention upon you and all kinds of trouble and misfortune would follow.

Thanks again for writing this, Lin.

[The Gaffer]

Woo-hoo! On we go. Very nicely done, Lin

Where to start?

Originally Posted by Linaewen

The Moon
The word ‘moon’ is used a number of times through the chapter. What is its significance? I notice on the third page of ‘A Knife in the Dark’ that Tolkien actually uses the words ‘the Moon’, which I found interesting because it makes Arda more like our own world, doesn’t it, with one Moon, considering Arda has a very different geographical structure to our own earth.

Yeah, he uses the skies to tell us that this is supposed to be the same earth that we walk on. There a reference to Hunter with his shining belt earlier on, isn't there? (i.e. Orion).

But that's a great part, where the Moon is just starting to climb over the lip of the dell, and they spot a silhouetted rider *Gaffer changes his trousers*

The Moon is a powerful touchstone throughout. I'm thinking here of the earlier chapters' walks at night, the Window on the West, even the thrush episode in the Hobbit on Durin's Day *(when the moon was in rising just as the sun was setting), and, at the risk of getting too far ahead, the wonderful description of Minas Morgul:

All was dark about it, earth and sky, but it was lit with light. Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing.

Clearly, Tolkien was much moved by walking by moonlight. It was one of the things that connected me with his writing right from the start. I can remember, aged 13 or 14, being kicked out of a camp site at about midnight (long story) and having to walk several miles through the woods in moonlight to the nearest alternative. I read LOTR not long after and immediately recognised the description.

[Rían]

There's also a reference to the Big Dipper - I love the stars

There's a reference to the squint-eyed Southerner in UT (Unfinished Tales) - he was captured by the Black Riders and saved his skin by becoming their spy. (from "The Hunt for the Ring"). I can't find any reference to the Black Riders sacking the Inn, tho - interesting question!

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

So that’s my “summary”. There was just so much I didn’t want to leave out in my beloved chapters. Some discussion points:

Ferny’s ‘Squint-eyed companion’
Incidentally, while talking about Ferny, he calls Strider ‘Longshanks’. Why?

Doesn't he call Strider "longshanks" in reference to his long legs?? Like "Getting around on "Shanks' Pony" means walking.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Other senses
“Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell”. What senses is Strider talking about? Feeling? Hearing? Or something else?

I think he refers to intuition here - and all of the little things that lead towards it. He refers to the troubled feelings that he and the hobbits experienced. He also refers to the intuitive manner in which the wraiths tracked them along their journey - although the Ring certainly contributed to this.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Strider’s warnings
Numerous times Strider warns the hobbits to not mention the name of the wraiths or other Mordor-related things, especially when they are so close by. Why is he so concerned about this, why does it endanger them?

I think this concept is opposite to the concept of Tom Bombadil "knowing the tune" for the things in his realm. Strider implies that saying the name of the Nazgul would give the Nazgul greater power, whereas Tom demonstrates that knowing the tune for something gives you power over it.

One possibility for Strider saying this is that the greatest power that the wraiths and Mordor-related things have is the power of fear. I guess you could say that be naming these things you increase the fear factor and therefore add to their strength. I'm not proposing this as the only reason, just as a possibility.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Glorfindel
He mentions to Strider that when he came across the Riders, they withdrew from him. Combined (or even individually?), wouldn’t they have the power to take on the Elf Prince? If so, why withdraw? I was thinking that for the time being they were focused on attaining the Ring and so did not bother with fighting Glorfindel

I think that Glorfindel did have the power to withstand the wraiths if they were not all together, particularly if it were in the daylight when they are not their strongest. Glorfindel does say that only those who were strong enough to ride openly against the Nine were sent out on the search for Aragorn and the hobbits.

Thanks, Linaewen, I really enjoyed reading these chapters and contemplating your discussion questions!!

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

I think that Glorfindel did have the power to withstand the wraiths if they were not all together, particularly if it were in the daylight when they are not their strongest. Glorfindel does say that only those who were strong enough to ride openly against the Nine were sent out on the search for Aragorn and the hobbits.

I think so too. Glorfindel must have been quite confident with his own powers. He was riding openly on the road, on a horse richly decorated, and with jingling bells! It is more likely that the Nazgul would try to avoid him, than the other way around.

[Beren3000]

I have a question that I've always wondered about whenever I read Flight to the Ford.
The flood at the ford killed the horses of the Nazgûl, but why did that hinder their attack? Sure they feared water, but they could apparently overcome their fear enough to make their horses cross the river. Why then would the flood make them turn back? Could they be physically hindered by the rush of water? What are your opinions on this?

[Lefty Scaevola]

They are invisible, and they (or perhaps only Angmar) resistant to permenant injury from some weapons, but they are yet to some extent coporeal and subject to physical forces, such as the flood, and they interact with ordinary matter, wearing clothes, riding horses, weildding baldes, they were swept away by the flood.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Strider’s warnings
Numerous times Strider warns the hobbits to not mention the name of the wraiths or other Mordor-related things, especially when they are so close by. Why is he so concerned about this, why does it endanger them?

The other possibility is that which is linked to superstition. You know how if you say something like...

"I haven't had the 'flu this winter", people will say that you shouldn't say it because it might happen as a result. People often say "Touch wood" after making a comment like this to ward off the bad omen.

So there is a strong historical background to bad omens occurring as a result of the use of words based on superstition - I don't know why!! Perhaps someone who knows about superstitions could shed light on this subject.

[Finrod Felagund]

In relation to water...and forgive me for this...but I recall in the Silmarillion, a tower (Barad Nimrais), built by Finrod Felagund on the coast, to guard from a sea attack by Morgoth...but it was unecessary, "for at no time ever did Morgoth essay to build ships or to make war by sea. Water all his servants shunned, and to the sea none would willingly go nigh, save in dire need"
Consequently, the tower was later taken in a land attack.

So it seems all evil creatures fear water...

Perhaps it has to do with an inherent fear in Sauron (and Morgoth), of things he could not master.

He did not fear Men or Saruman for example, because they were easily bent to his will. The elves were not controllable and he sought always to wipe them out. Similarly, he hated the dwarves because, even with the 7 rings he was unable to control them. Because of Ulmo's power, and Osse's unpredictability, no one set against the valar could hope to control the sea. And in any case, in any of us, anything we can't control, is to be feared.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Other senses
“Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell”. What senses is Strider talking about? Feeling? Hearing? Or something else?

I myself believe that this refers to the Ringwraith's connection to the ring, and the manner in which they can "sense" its presence...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not all evil creatures fear water because the Watcher of the Water lives in water.

[Finrod Felagund]

Ahhh...very good point...
but that water in which it resided was stagnant, under a mountain and in a mountain pool, not connected to the power of the seas/rivers...

[BeardofPants]

Do we know that for sure?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

The power of the Ring is made evident by Frodo’s inability to resist putting it on. When he strikes at the Rider’s foot, he cries ‘O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!’. What makes him say those certain words?

In RotK Sam says something about remembering the Black Riders reaction to those words when Gildor and his company met Frodo, Sam and Pippin in the Shire.

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Its is implied (at Bree: something like " 'They are terrible!' ...memory of recent pain") his that Aragon has had a recent unsuccesful encounter with the Nazgul, liekly the one in the appedix where a GROUP of rangers is beaten and driven off for the sarn ford.

I agree with this but surely he would have had knowledge of them from Gandalf (eg. they fear fire) and some knowledge that he would have picked up on his travels.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

he would have had knowledge of them from Gandalf (eg. they fear fire)

What makes you think that Nazguls fear the fire?
Gandalf fought with them with “such light and flame that cannot have been seen…since the war-beacons of old” and, yet, he lost them only by “escaping”.

[Linaewen]

Wasn't it the steeds of the Nazgûl that feared the fire, and so were driven in a panic into the river?