I seek your counsel....

[hama]

My name is Brad Marston and I am the librettist (script writer) and lyricist of a musical called The One Ring based on LOTR. Ben has kindly provided a host for my project here at Tolkien Trail and has recently posted Act One Scene Five at the site..or made it available for down load..."For want of Bandwidth a kingdom was lost."

But seriously, this is the forum that the serious Tolkien scholars seem to hang out and Act One Scene Five is perhaps the scene where I have had to most take lierary license and change actual events from the book and cut the most scenes and characters.

If anyone is interested or has the time I would be very grateful if you would read the scene and give me your comments....or even better develop a conversation amongst yourselves that I could learn from and or join in with.

Sincerely,

Brad

[Renille]

You cut...Wormtongue...and Orthanc...sob. And telling a little bit more about the palantir would have been good. I didn't really read that closely, but from what I could see, the background was unclear. Its potential for evil would have been better portrayed if Saruman had been its previous owner. But really, I liked it. Especially Eowyn's song at the end...I can't wait to hear the music.

[aldesign]

dude, i will dwnld it,
and i would like to help u

give me some time, and ill give a decent reply on here.

[Wayfarer]

Forbid the wizard his staff, or it will cost you your job.

[hama]

Saruman, Wormtounge and the destruction od Isengard were all in the first draft of the script but I finally decided that it was pointless to adapt an entire scene for two characters who would not appear again in the show. Also, I could not imagine Ents being able to be brought to the stage successfully. So in the first re-write Saruman and Isengard were jettisoned. After that cutting Wormtounge was easy.

Wayfarer, thank you for your post but I have not the wit to understand it.

[Ñólendil]

I've been meaning to look at that musical. I've read half of the first part now, and I'm still reading. I'm going to try to make a large post in response to it. It's not going to be a long list of knocking you for inaccuracies, I think I can really contribute to improving parts.

[hama]

Nolendil, for my 111th post I am happy to respond to your post and your offer to make suggestions for improving the script. I actually would mind a laundry list of innacuracies.

I would of course be interested in your definition of innacuracies. I am quite sure I have made mistakes. In the course of 2+ years of writing and numerous re-writes, I find that at times I am "adapting" an earlier adaptation as opposed to the original source material.

Most of all any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Don't worry. In this business one develops a rather thick skin.

Hama

[Wayfarer]

You didn't get the staff joke? ]: ) At least you're honest...

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

... but you should all get the lays of beleriand. the lay of leithan is great.

Lol.. I think it be funny if they tried to casually fit that into the movies in it's entirety.

[hama]

Unfortunately Carden, alas another post that I lack the wit to understand. I feel fully a mere brigand of the hills. Perhaps you and Wayfarer could explain yourselves to this fool of a Took.

[Wayfarer]

Have you read the TT?

In it, Theoden. at the bidding of Wormtongue, orders the fellowship to abandon thier weapons. Including Gandalf's staff. But the doorward, Hama, let's Gandalf keep it, and because of doing so loses his job.

[hama]

Have you read the TT?

Now I am not sure if you are jesting or insulting? Yes I have read the TT. It would be tremendously difficult to write an adaptation of LOTR in any form without reading one of the books.

I am simply confused as to how your paraphrasing a line from TT relates to any of the posts that proceeded it.

[hama]

nolendil....I totally meant to say I WOULDN'T mind a list of innacuracies...my apologies....

[hama]

Geez Nolendil,

How long is that list of innacuracies you are working on?

Brad

[Ñólendil]

Not terribly long, considering me and the length of your first Act. I am sorry, but I am unbelievably incredibly lazy. I will post what I have so far, for it might be that or nothing. What I have is an unfinished rough draft for myself, but it will have to do, at least for now. Please do not take any negative comments personal, I like what I have read of your play and I think anyone trying to do any kind of adaptation of the Lord of the Rings is a very brave individual. It's a daunting task, isn't it? Here's my draft, remember it was written for me, to be developed into an actual post:

Begin message with Tolkien's letter about dramatizing his work.

1. On the opening lines from Gandalf in Act One Scene One

Gandalf seems to be laying out what the story is about. It focuses on the ennoblement of the small and meek. Mention what Tolkien said the story is about: death and the desire for deathlessness.

2. Where's the drama in this drama? Gandalf's lines to Frodo have lossed their edge.

3. How will the general audience know what Hobbits are?

4. Typo: And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades and forever walks in twilight forever under the power of the dark lord.

5. " But for now your spirit is strong and all that transpires from this day forth will involve you and the ring." Is Gandalf talking to Frodo or the audience? What does this line mean? I am almost convinced that Gandalf is informing the audience the rest of the play will be about Frodo and the Ring, but this might be supposed without his help, and what is he supposed to mean by saying it to Frodo?

6. It is not clearly established that the writing on the Ring is only visible because of the fire.

7. Elfin Kings? Should be Elven!

8. Frodo's line: "If it is so powerful and so dangerous, why not just destroy it?" Gandalf then informs him that Frodo's fire isn't hot enough. But there is no indication in the script itself that by 'destroy' he meant it should be burned in his fire. It would make more sense for Frodo to at least turn away from the Wizard and look at his fire-place and finger his Ring, as if thinking. But Frodo has already discovered in the script that his fire can't harm the Ring. I thus suggest Gandalf's words be changed. As they stand he says "My dear Frodo, your little fire wouldn’t melt even ordinary gold but there no smith’s forge in the Shire that could alter it." He should rather say something like "My dear Frodo, you know now that your little fire can not unmake this Ring. It would not, of course, even melt ordinary gold, but there is no forge in the Shire that could alter what you bear."

I also object to the form of another sentence in Gandalf's words here: "If it could be unmade so easily the threat to Middle Earth could be countered just as easily. " This is just not written very well, in my opinion. I would prefer '"If it could be unmade so easily the deed would have been done long ago and there would not now be any Dark Lord to trouble the Free People today."

Mount Doom is called "Fire Mountain". This is not particularly important but I think "Mountain of Fire" simply sounds better.

9. Frodo's words: "I do really wish to destroy it. Or, well have it destroyed. I am not made for perilous quests. " Why does Frodo wish it to be destroyed? I think he's accepting all this all too casually. Shouldn't he elaborate about his decision? "If this is truly the Enemy's Ring, and if it is truly evil, then I do really wish to destroy it. Or, well, have it destroyed. I am not made for perilous quests". I realize this line of Frodo's you've used comes from Tolkien, but the context is considerably different, that is, when you consider the length of Frodo's conversation with Gandalf and the time it takes for him to accept the essentials. The conversation must be shortened and you've done that, but in so doing you've made Frodo's realization of what must be done a bit unrealistic. Remember in Shadow of the Past Frodo was skeptical about Gandalf's story at first. He didn't take everything seriously all of a sudden.

10. "There is peril everywhere now. Sauron knows the Ring has been found and his Black Riders search everywhere." The word "everywhere" said twice in two sentences right agin eachother is just uncouth. So is the form of my previous sentence, but I'm not writing a musical

11. Talk about the problem in this play, just like the one with P.J's movie, with Gandalf suspecting the Riders may have discovered the whereabouts of the Shire, but yet leaves them to make it to Rivendell alone.

12. What is Rivendell? Will the audience know it's a hidden peaceful valley inhabited by Elves? I don't think so. Can't Gandalf mention that Elves live there?

13. " Choose for yourself a companion to aid you on your journey but tell no one, not even him, where you are going and for what purpose."

So Gandalf wants Frodo to take a companion with him to this Rivendell, alone, while Black Riders may be looking for them, and Gandalf advises Frodo not to trust this companion? This makes no sense. If Gandalf is going to tell Frodo to bring someone along, he should tell him to bring someone he can trust.

14. Typo: "At least the thought of seeing my Uncle Bilbo makes the idea of leaving the here bearable."

15. Dislike of Merry and Pippin's desire to go with Frodo being cut down to a desire of adventure. In books they were afraid for him.

16. The brief battle between Aragorn and the Nine. You have probably heard enough rejections to this musical that begin with 'In the books ... ', so I am sorry to give you another one. In the books none can stand against the Nazgul when they are all gathered together. My suggestion:

"They exit. The lights dim and then fade to black, and slowly brighten again. Frodo enters followed by Sam, Merry, and Pippin, singing a song [or humming a tune] softly. As they cross the stage, a man in a dark green cloak enters and follows them slowly, until the Hobbits exit. The man stands in the center of the stage, perfectly still, watching them intently. He nods, as if satisfied, and sits down in the middle of the road. The lights dim, indicating the coming of evening, and the man is lying as if asleep. Nine sinister looking figures in flowing black cloaks enter from different directions (except from the side from which the Hobbits left). They observe the man in the middle of the road, in their way. They approach him, and the man leaps up, sword in hand, fully awake. He challenges them. One commands five others to move ahead [after the Hobbits], the man tries to engages them but is drawn away by the others. He exchanges a few blows before slowly leading them off in the direction of the Hobbits but upstage. They follow him. The set changes to Rivendell and the council of Elrond. Seated upstage center are Gandalf, the Elf-Lord Elrond and Bilbo Baggins, an old Hobbit who appears to have nodded off. Standing down stage on either side of these three are various folk of Middle Earth. Off to the side, the green cloaked man stands quietly, observing."

This I think is far more acceptable to the Tolkien fan, and also (in anyone's eyes), doesn't make the Nine seem so easily opposed.

17. Typo? "To all of you who do not know me, I am Gimli Dwarf, Son of Gloin." Should it not be Gimli the Dwarf, ~?

"A year ago a messenger came from Mordor to speak with our Dain." Is there also a typo here? Shouldn't it be "with our King, Dain"? A line further down leads me to believe it in an error rather than a typo: "If we make no answer the Enemy may move men to assail the Dain." "Dain" is not a title, but a name. The ruler of the Lonely Mountain was the King, and the King at the time of the Lord of the Rings was named Dain.

I am sorry if some of this is too vague or incoherent. My opening line was in references to a letter by Tolkien which can be read in the Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien. He noted that the Lord of the Rings is a work most unsuitable to dramatization. I believe I was going to include the quote to basically prove what you're trying to do is extreemly difficult. On # 11 I meant the following: in the books, Gandalf has no idea the Nine are abroad or that they are looking for Frodo when he leaves the Shire. As he says at the Council of Elrond, if he had known, he would have fled with Frodo to Rivendell immediately. In your play and Peter Jackson's movie, he's more than aware of Frodo's peril, but he sends him off with nobody but Sam anyway. I think you should alter the play whereby Gandalf does not actually know how much danger Frodo and his faithful companion are in, before they all arrive in Rivendell.

[hama]

Thank you so much for your post and insightful comments. It will be obvious from my responses that I paid too little attention to your closing paragraph. I really like your idea of having Gandalf describe the danger that Frodo faces early in the first scene but then comment at the Council of Elrond that if he had known the Nine were abroad he would have fled with Frodo immediatley. I will have to re-read the script to see if the way it is currently written enhances the sense of Frodo's peril for the audience.


1. On the opening lines from Gandalf in Act One Scene One

Gandalf seems to be laying out what the story is about. It focuses on the ennoblement of the small and meek. Mention what Tolkien said the story is about : death and the desire for deathlessness.

I am not sure I can fit that into Gandalf’s opening prologue but I might be able to work it into the script in Act One Scene One. I would be grateful if you could direct me to the letter in which Tolkien states this. I actually resisted reading any background material before writing the script. I want the show to be an adaptation of what is actually in LotR as opposed to Unfinished Tales etc., which relatively few have read.

2. Where's the drama in this drama? Gandalf's lines to Frodo have lossed their edge.

A valid criticism. In my desire for succinct exposition I have allowed the dialogue to become a bit pedantic. Perhaps I need to sharpen the exchanges between Gandalf and Frodo. Also the lines may seem sharper when spoken by talented actors.

3. How will the general audience know what Hobbits are?

If from nothing else, they will know it from the “program notes.”

4. Typo: And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades and forever walks in twilight forever under the power of the dark lord.

Yes, Tolkien’s actual words would be better here. “he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.”

5. " But for now your spirit is strong and all that transpires from this day forth will involve you and the ring." Is Gandalf talking to Frodo or the audience? What does this line mean? I am almost convinced that Gandalf is informing the audience the rest of the play will be about Frodo and the Ring, but this might be supposed without his help, and what is he supposed to mean by saying it to Frodo?

Yes that is precisely what the line is about. He is actually speaking to Frodo but is informing the audience as well. It might be supposed but I can’t take the chance that it is not.

6. It is not clearly established that the writing on the Ring is only visible because of the fire.

Tolkien also never made it clear that the writing was only visible because of the fire. In my opinion it is not an important enough point to spend time explaining it.

7. Elfin Kings? Should be Elven!

Agreed.

8. Frodo's line: "If it is so powerful and so dangerous, why not just destroy it?" Gandalf then informs him that Frodo's fire isn't hot enough. But there is no indication in the script itself that by 'destroy' he meant it should be burned in his fire. It would make more sense for Frodo to at least turn away from the Wizard and look at his fire-place and finger his Ring, as if thinking. But Frodo has already discovered in the script that his fire can't harm the Ring. I thus suggest Gandalf's words be changed. As they stand he says "My dear Frodo, your little fire wouldn’t melt even ordinary gold but there no smith’s forge in the Shire that could alter it." He should rather say something like "My dear Frodo, you know now that your little fire can not unmake this Ring. It would not, of course, even melt ordinary gold, but there is no forge in the Shire that could alter what you bear."

I also object to the form of another sentence in Gandalf's words here: "If it could be unmade so easily the threat to Middle Earth could be countered just as easily. " This is just not written very well, in my opinion. I would prefer '"If it could be unmade so easily the deed would have been done long ago and there would not now be any Dark Lord to trouble the Free People today."

Mount Doom is called "Fire Mountain". This is not particularly important but I think "Mountain of Fire" simply sounds better.

9. Frodo's words: "I do really wish to destroy it. Or, well have it destroyed. I am not made for perilous quests. " Why does Frodo wish it to be destroyed? I think he's accepting all this all too casually. Shouldn't he elaborate about his decision? "If this is truly the Enemy's Ring, and if it is truly evil, then I do really wish to destroy it. Or, well, have it destroyed. I am not made for perilous quests". I realize this line of Frodo's you've used comes from Tolkien, but the context is considerably different, that is, when you consider the length of Frodo's conversation with Gandalf and the time it takes for him to accept the essentials. The conversation must be shortened and you've done that, but in so doing you've made Frodo's realization of what must be done a bit unrealistic. Remember in Shadow of the Past Frodo was skeptical about Gandalf's story at first. He didn't take everything seriously all of a sudden.

For all of the above I would agree with you in the main. Unfortunately much has to be done “suddenly” when one is trying to synthesize LotR down to three hours. I will take a look at that again and see if I can both improve the dialogue and enhance the context. One of the problems in writing and re writing a script is that as you get farther and farther along you often end up adapting your adaptation as opposed to the source material.

10. "There is peril everywhere now. Sauron knows the Ring has been found and his Black Riders search everywhere."
Did I REALLY write that sentence? Yes guilty as charged.

11. Talk about the problem in this play, just like the one with P.J's movie, with Gandalf suspecting the Riders may have discovered the whereabouts of the Shire, but yet leaves them to make it to Rivendell alone.

Is this a problem for PJ and My adaptations or is the problem rooted in the source material itself?

12. What is Rivendell? Will the audience know it's a hidden peaceful valley inhabited by Elves? I don't think so. Can't Gandalf mention that Elves live there?

Yes he can…Another good point.

13. " Choose for yourself a companion to aid you on your journey but tell no one, not even him, where you are going and for what purpose."

So Gandalf wants Frodo to take a companion with him to this Rivendell, alone, while Black Riders may be looking for them, and Gandalf advises Frodo not to trust this companion? This makes no sense. If Gandalf is going to tell Frodo to bring someone along, he should tell him to bring someone he can trust.
Yes of course…in FotR Sam Already knew they were going to Rivendell but in the script he doesn’t.

I took the line from Gandalf’s warning at the beginning of Three is Company “…do take care, and don’t let out any hint of where you are going!”

14. Typo: "At least the thought of seeing my Uncle Bilbo makes the idea of leaving the here bearable."

What is wrong with “the here?” LOL

15. Dislike of Merry and Pippin's desire to go with Frodo being cut down to a desire of adventure. In books they were afraid for him.

This is another case of “adapting the adaptation.”

16. The brief battle between Aragorn and the Nine. You have probably heard enough rejections to this musical that begin with 'In the books ... ', so I am sorry to give you another one. In the books none can stand against the Nazgul when they are all gathered together. My suggestion:

"They exit. The lights dim and then fade to black, and slowly brighten again. Frodo enters followed by Sam, Merry, and Pippin, singing a song [or humming a tune] softly. As they cross the stage, a man in a dark green cloak enters and follows them slowly, until the Hobbits exit. The man stands in the center of the stage, perfectly still, watching them intently. He nods, as if satisfied, and sits down in the middle of the road. The lights dim, indicating the coming of evening, and the man is lying as if asleep. Nine sinister looking figures in flowing black cloaks enter from different directions (except from the side from which the Hobbits left). They observe the man in the middle of the road, in their way. They approach him, and the man leaps up, sword in hand, fully awake. He challenges them. One commands five others to move ahead [after the Hobbits], the man tries to engages them but is drawn away by the others. He exchanges a few blows before slowly leading them off in the direction of the Hobbits but upstage. They follow him. The set changes to Rivendell and the council of Elrond. Seated upstage center are Gandalf, the Elf-Lord Elrond and Bilbo Baggins, an old Hobbit who appears to have nodded off. Standing down stage on either side of these three are various folk of Middle Earth. Off to the side, the green cloaked man stands quietly, observing."

This I think is far more acceptable to the Tolkien fan, and also (in anyone's eyes), doesn't make the Nine seem so easily opposed.

Am I going to have to pay you royalty points if I use your suggestions?

17. Typo? "To all of you who do not know me, I am Gimli Dwarf, Son of Gloin." Should it not be Gimli the Dwarf, ~?

Actually I think it may be better to simply say Gimli, Son of Gloin and let his stature…or lack thereof speak for itself…

"A year ago a messenger came from Mordor to speak with our Dain." Is there also a typo here? Shouldn't it be "with our King, Dain"? A line further down leads me to believe it in an error rather than a typo: "If we make no answer the Enemy may move men to assail the Dain." You are exactly right. My error. I thought Dain was a title.

[Ñólendil]

I'm very glad you found my comments useful.

would be grateful if you could direct me to the letter in which Tolkien states this. I actually resisted reading any background material before writing the script. I want the show to be an adaptation of what is actually in LotR as opposed to Unfinished Tales etc., which relatively few have read.

Certainly. In Letter 186, in 1956, Tolkien said that

I do not think that even Power or Domination is the real centre of my story. It provides the theme of a War, about something dark and threatening enough to seem at that time of supreme importance, but that is mainly 'a setting' for characters to show themselves. The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly to lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.

In Letter 203 in 1957 he said

But I should say, if asked, the tale is not really about Power and Domination: that only sets the wheels going; it is about Death and he desire for deathlessness. Which is hardly more than to say it is a tale written by a Man!

In Letter 208 in 1958 he said

As for 'message': I have none really, if by that is meant the conscious purpose in writing The Lord of the Rings, of preaching, or of delivering myself of a vision of truth specially revealed to me! I was primarily writing an exciting story in an atmosphere and background such as I find personally attractive. But in such a process inevitably one's own taste, ideas, and beliefs get taken up. Though it is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death. (Not that there is any original 'message' in that: most of human art & thought is similarly preoccupied.) But certainly Death is not an Enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster. Compare the death of Aragorn with a Ringwraith. The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men). Their temptation is different: towards a fainéant melancholy, burdened with Memory, leading to an attempt to halt Time.

In letter 111 1958 he said

But I might say that if the tale is 'about' anything (other than itself), it is not as seems widely supposed about 'power'. Power-seeking is only the motive-power that sets events going, and is relatively unimportant, I think. It is mainly concerned with Death, and Immortality; and the 'escapes': serial longevity, and hoarding memory.

Of course he also said the last Tale of his mythos (the Lord of the Rings)

is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, forgotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole ... is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar are utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless.

And he said of the themes of the Lord of the Rings that 'The ennoblement of the ignoble I find specially moving.'. There are many other quotes along these lines. But when he was talking about what the Lord of the Rings was really about, it was Death and the desire for deathlessness.

I see. What else will be in the program notes? It will contain background information about the world portrayed?

So Gandalf wants Frodo to take a companion with him to this Rivendell, alone, while Black Riders may be looking for them, and Gandalf advises Frodo not to trust this companion? This makes no sense. If Gandalf is going to tell Frodo to bring someone along, he should tell him to bring someone he can trust.
Yes of course…in FotR Sam Already knew they were going to Rivendell but in the script he doesn’t.

I took the line from Gandalf’s warning at the beginning of Three is Company “…do take care, and don’t let out any hint of where you are going!”

But Gandalf had already told Sam that he was going with Frodo, did not he? If so, by 'don't let out any hint of where you are going', Gandalf could not have meant that Frodo should not even tell Sam. Sam knew Frodo was going to Rivendell.

15. Dislike of Merry and Pippin's desire to go with Frodo being cut down to a desire of adventure. In books they were afraid for him.

This is another case of “adapting the adaptation.”

Very well, I don't suppose there is any arguing with that.

Am I going to have to pay you royalty points if I use your suggestions?

I don't know if you are being serious or not, but in case you are: I say 'certainly not'. My suggestion for the Strider/Nazgul scene is derived from your account anyway and I used some of your language. I am not altogether sure what royalty points are or if they involve money, but I do not want any.

[Darius O'Herran]

Quote : FRODO

A journey to Rivendell. At least the thought of seeing my Uncle Bilbo makes the idea of leaving the here bearable.


Perhaps if you say something about elves being there too, along with Bilbo, it could give the audience at least a slight idea that Rivendell is an elvish home.

*referring to previous post from Nolendil (sorry no accents) about not telling what Rivendell is. He said “12. What is Rivendell? Will the audience know it's a hidden peaceful valley inhabited by Elves? I don't think so. Can't Gandalf mention that Elves live there?” *

I haven’t had time to get very far on the script, but as I go, I will try to be as helpful as possible, feel free to disregard me as you see fit. <smile> I am aware this is a harsh business and you have hard skin as all writers tend to have. I like what I’ve read so far, and goodluck, I’ll try not to be repetitive of what others have said before me.

Darius O’Herran

[Ñólendil]

Welcome Darius!

Your keyboard is probably capable of making a tilde. Push the num-lock. Then hold down Alt and press 165 on the numeric pad to the right. It should produce: Ñ, which Tolkien uses to represent the 'ng' sound of Quenya.

The long 'o' can be made the same way, only the numbers for it are 162: ó

[hama]

My question regarding paying royalty points (yes it involves money) was meant purely as a compliment. I found your suggestions to be very much on point and helpful.

I agree with you and Darious that some expostion on the nature of Rivendell is warranted. When I am finished tinkering I will post the changes.

Again thank you.