Chapter 19: Of Beren and Lúthien

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Tolkien is sometimes accused of being a misogynist. Not so: it’s the men who always marry up, wedding women stronger, wiser, older, and richer than they.

I don't think the men marrying up is necessarily a good argument against misogyny. One could argue that it makes Elven women into prices to be won, not actual beings with an agency of their own. And in turning this around one could say that in all Tolkien's work there is not one mortal woman ever good enough for a Elvish husband.

Not that I think Tolkien was a misogynist. I'd say that the Tale of Lúthien and Beren is about the strongest argument one can make against it. Lúthien is capable, brave, wise and she knows what she wants. She is no passive princess pining in a tower, either way you turn it. Beren needs Lúthien perhaps more than she needs him in their adventures and they alternatingly help one another out from a tough spot. Beren doesn't simply love her because she's beautiful, he also clearly respects her wishes and her capabilities.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I think it was in her mind to meet and mate with one of the Eldar. That must have come from the Music. No other Maia does this. (To make that point is why I reached back to the beginning of this thread.) She did not know the outcome of her actions, giving birth to Lúthien: The outcome of Lúthien’s actions was a matter of her Free Will, not her mother’s, and Melian was not privy to it beforehand.

But free will obviously doesn't hide potential outcomes from those with foresight. While I agree that Melian would not be able to know the outcome of Lúthien's actions, it would surprise me that Melian had no idea that her daughter would get involved in this particular forsight.

But there is so little actual texts to go on on whether Melian had any specific plans with Thingol or to what extent she had orchestrated their meeting (if any) in the first place. We can only speculate in what way Melian foresaw the events of the Lay of Leithan. If she had had a specific purpose to mate with an Elf, there must have been a purpose for Lúthien too.

He is definitely ignoring his wife, who is much wiser (and far older!) than he.

I think Thingol is suffering from pride and an inflated opinion of himself. It eventually gets him killed by the Dwarves of Nogrod in his own fortress, which they helped him build; and ignoring Melian’s counsel to return the Silmaril leads to the ruin of both Doriath and the mixed company of Eldar and Edain at the Mouths of Sirion; but it also permits Eärendil’s embassy to Valinor.

Much of his really bad decisions happen when Thingol has the Silmaril, as if it prevents him from thinking clearly. I'd agree it is pride that has him set it as a goal for Beren beforehand.

But afterwards... Tolkien often hints at it being the lust for the Silmaril that eventually gets him killed. Which makes me wonder somewhat because the things are supposed to be hallowed by Manwë, and yet they seem to cause a lot of evil all on their own. Even Lúthien's death is supposedly hastened by wearing it. Not so holy and innocent then.

As for Eärendil's embassy, I'm hesitant to say that Melian knew of this also. It would require a lot of foresight and planning. And Eärendil fate is much more guided by Ulmo's actions, unless one argues that Ulmo and Melian had the same distant goal in mind and Ulmo had greater plans for Tuor from the start apart from trying to save Gondolin.

I think she’s not supposed to advise Lúthien. This seems to me some plan of Eru’s, and Melian is the agent through whom it is achieved.

Leaving potential duty out of it for a moment, Melian clearly loved Thingol and Lúthien. If my mom had foresight, you bet I'd consult her on this sort of thing.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And in turning this around one could say that in all Tolkien's work there is not one mortal woman ever good enough for a Elvish husband.

The closest to a mortal woman being good enough for an Elf, is seen in the relationship between Aegnor/Aikanaro and Andreth. I wonder why he didn't marry Andreth. It could be in order to protect her, in view of the wartime they lived in and the wars he saw coming. It could also be because his brothers didn't think it was a good idea.

I don't think it was that he didn't see her as good enough - after he had been killed in the wars, he chose to stay with Mandos till the end of time, rather than go back to Valinor as his brother Finrod did. He didn't want anyone else for his wife.

I need to read the Athrabeth again to see what reason Finrod chooses to give Andreth for Aegnor's choice ...

[Earniel]

I had not forgotten the Athrabeth. It is to my knowledge pretty much the only case known of that sort of love between a mortal woman and an Elf. There are far more instances the other way around. Which is perhaps why it still rubs me wrong a little bit because everybody seemed to be so darned convinced it could never work! Whyyyy?

I don't remember it much, it's been a while since I read it, but I remember not being particularly impressed by the reasons eveybody gave for being opposed.

So it partly spurred me on to make the general observation that mortal woman just don't seem to be 'high' enough for elven husbands. And as a mortal woman (alas!) myself, it obviously annoys me.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't remember it much, it's been a while since I read it, but I remember not being particularly impressed by the reasons eveybody gave for being opposed.

I fear there isn't much to be impressed about in that respect ...

And all we hear in that story is one elf's point of view. It's a conversation only between Andreth and the brother of her loved one. Perhaps he (Finrod) is biased? He speaks for all the others there, does he give a true account of the other's reasons?

And perhaps he thinks Andreth isn't good enough for his brother and doesn't allow him to go on with the relationship?

This is perhaps fanfiction rather than interpreting the text (I have even participated in some RPing about it), but interesting all the same ...

[Earniel]

There's something to be said for that line of thought. But... why did it have to be Finrod?

Now if this was someone of the Fëanoreans, or even Thingol, one could understand the obvious bias and dismiss it accordingly.

But Finrod...Finrod was by all accounts a reasonable, intelligent and straight-laced guy. And he probably knew more about humans than the majority of the Noldorin Princes due to his higher interaction with the House of Bëor.

By all accounts Finrod of all people had to know what he was talking about. And then he does something like this.

One of the reasons I am not quite a Finrod-fangirl, despite all the other good stuff he had going for him.