LotR Discussion Project: Chapters X & XI

[Linaewen]

Chapter X & X1- The Voice of Saruman and The PalantÃ*r
- by Radagast the Brown & Lin

(Sorry for the delay! Both of us were really busy)

These chapters, while rather short, are quite informative.

Chapter X- The Voice of Saruman

Gandalf carries out the ‘dangerous, and probably useless’ task of paying a last visit to Saruman. He is accompanied by Théoden, Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, Merry & Pippin, and some Riders of Rohan.

We learn of the power in Gandalf’s voice. If I may refer to Letters here, Tolkien says explicitly that Saruman’s voice is highly persuasive, not hypnotic:

Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.

I don’t know about you, but this wasn’t the impression I got when reading about it in LotR. The way Tolkien describes Saruman’s voice as an ‘enchantment’ and a ‘spell’ made me think that Saruman was controlling, rather than manipulating, those who listened to him. Was Gandalf immune to his powers? (If so, is it because he’s now Gandalf the White?) Or did he have to actively resist them?

Saruman patronisingly offers to aid Théoden, who takes a while to speak because he strives ‘with anger or doubt’. I suppose that Saruman does this out of desperation, though he must know that there is little aid that he can actually provide. Théoden, however, rejects Saruman’s offer and in doing so, fulfils his role of King, which he has recently taken on once more. His speech is so stirring and dignified; it’s one of my favourite passages in the book.

Saruman then tries (again, condescendingly), to form an alliance with Gandalf. Instead, Gandalf offers the chance to Saruman to redeem himself, and to be ‘free’, but only after relinquishing the Key of Orthanc and his staff. Saruman, enraged by this, turns to leave, but is pulled back, against his will, by Gandalf’s command. Gandalf exerts his new power and authority as Gandalf the White; he casts Saruman from the order and the White Council, and also breaks his staff.

It’s interesting to see Saruman’s demise. He has paid for his greed and betrayal, and has been slowly corrupted by it. “He will not serve, only command� says Gandalf, and this is true to the very end, as we see by his refusal to leave Orthanc. (This is also seen later, but now’s not that time for that). Is there this weakness in all of us? After all, the greatest of the Istari was corrupted, and Gandalf admits that he doesn’t quite trust himself with the Ring and so forth.

In his anger, Wormtongue throws a mysterious ball (note: with poor aim, probably because he doesn’t know if he hates Gandalf or Saruman more) at the company, which Pippin retrieves, but which Gandalf quickly takes off him.

We learn from Gandalf of, what seems to be, Saruman’s inevitable doom by the choices he has made. What, at this point in time, do you think will become of him?

The company leave Treebeard and his Ents, who pledge to guard Isengard for as long as necessary. There are hopeful plans made for the future, with Legolas asking to see Fangorn after the War. The Hobbits are added to the Ents’ Long List, so we can see how the hobbits have already begun to make their mark in history.

Chapter XI The PalantÃ*r

Upon leaving Isengard, the group see Saruman’s emblem, the White Hand, broken by the Ents. This seemingly represent’s Saruman’s hopelessness.

The company head back to Helm’s Deep, and stop for the night. Pippin is restless and resents Gandalf taking the PalantÃ*r off him without telling him any information. Merry is so weary he falls asleep straight away, but Pippin, drawn by curiosity and also some other force, takes the PalantÃ*r from Gandalf and peers into it. He is terrified by he is confronted by- Sauron, who still believes the PalantÃ*r is with Saruman and wants it to be returned to him. Pippin is distressed by the ordeal, having felt that he was ‘falling into pieces’, and his body becomes rigid. He is reproached by Gandalf, but forgiven.

The Orthanc-stone is now identified undeniably as the PalantÃ*r of Orthanc, and Gandalf gives it to Aragorn, to whom it rightfully belongs. They now know of the link between Isengard and Mordor. Gandalf admits that Pippin’s inquisitiveness has saved him, because he may have otherwise attempted to probe it and revealed himself to Sauron.

Again, they ride, and are passed by a Nazgûl, Gandalf warns them that ‘The storm is coming’, and they ride with urgency. Pippin and Gandalf ride on Shadowfax, and Pippin learns much about the PalantÃ*ri. They ride rapidly to Minas Tirith, leaving the others far behind.

[Linaewen]

Some discussion points

1) The voice of Saruman: the parts that I thought stood out, were the changes between his soft voice and his less soft voice.. from anger. I also wondered if his voice really did weaken, or is it just his schemes and things he did that made Theoden resist him? [Theoden says: "But I fear your voice has lost his charm"]


2) A wizard focused his powers through his staff. Is the breaking of Saruman’s staff also symbolic? What powers may have he retained?

3) Gandalf says “Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?� Does this mean for sure that this would have been the result of Saruman’s manipulation of one’s senses, or did he have the power to alter his appearance? Indeed, what is the nature of the Wizards’ power? What force drew Saruman back to the window against his will, when Gandalf commands him?

4) Why is there a change in Gandalf's personality after he became 'the White'? I refer to what Merry said - "..both kinder and more alarming, merrier and more solemn then before..."

5) If another person, not Pippin, had retrieved the PalantÃ*r, would they have been as drawn like he was. It takes great strength to rid the PalantÃ*rof Sauron’s power, yet if Aragorn had touched it, would he have been tempted to look at it just as Pippin was?

6) Page 585 in LotR: "In that case let Rohan look for its horses" - question is, wouldn't the horses be afraid of the Nazgul, like most animals we know of? The horses of the Nazgul were special, probably bred by Sauron in Mordor, and the fell beasts were... fell. Does it mean the Nazgul may not scare horses? Or some kinds of horses..?

7) Orthanc, in translated Rohirric, meant ‘the cunning mind’. When was this name given (before or after Saruman) and why?

8) Regarding Saruman’s offer of aid to Théoden, was there any hope in this? Could he actually help Théoden?

9) “I have other things to do�, Saruman says. Does he really, at that point in time?

10) What did the colours of the Wizards represent? Especially Gandalf the Grey.

11) Why is Saruman’s emblem a White Hand?

12) “Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would- to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!�
I just like this passage. It demonstrates the great power of the PalantÃ*ri, which could look into the past, present...

13) Théoden says: "Strange powers have our enemies, and strange weaknesses!". How true is this? Is this applicable to more than just 'enemies'?

14) Much earlier on, Gildor advises the Hobbits "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." Certainly we have seen how subtle they can be, but how 'quick to anger' are they?

Of interest:

• PalantÃ*r
• For more info about the palantÃ*ri, refer to UT “The PalantÃ*riâ€� (Very interesting- it discusses why none of the White Council suspected the stones were still being used)

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Again, apologies for the delay! The due date was the busiest time of the year for Lin- exams.
Hopefully you guys can come up with some good things to discuss, neither of us feel very original.

[The Gaffer]

Great summary, both. Many thanks.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

1) The voice of Saruman: the parts that I thought stood out, were the changes between his soft voice and his less soft voice.. from anger. I also wondered if his voice really did weaken, or is it just his schemes and things he did that made Theoden resist him? [Theoden says: "But I fear your voice has lost his charm"]

Saruman gets the best lines in the whole book in this chapter!

What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where the brigands drink in the reek and the brats roll on the floor amongst the dogs?

Interesting how we "see" this interaction from the perspective of the various listeners. e.g., the Riders being thoroughly taken in and cheering when Theoden began "we will have peace".

I guess his power has diminished somewhat, but maybe Theoden gets a bonus on his saving throw because he's been talking to Gandalf!

[Elanor the Fair]

Great summary and excellent discussion points!! I am really busy right now as well - school reports and interviews!!, so I'll only comment on one or two discussion points now.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

3) Gandalf says “Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?� Does this mean for sure that this would have been the result of Saruman’s manipulation of one’s senses, or did he have the power to alter his appearance?

Saruman could look like Gandalf "in your eyes". I interpret this as meaning that he could make you think he looked like another person but could not actually alter his appearance.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

5) If another person, not Pippin, had retrieved the PalantÃ*r, would they have been as drawn like he was. It takes great strength to rid the PalantÃ*r of Sauron’s power, yet if Aragorn had touched it, would he have been tempted to look at it just as Pippin was?

An interesting point! When you consider that Pippin was not tempted by the Ring, it is intriguing that he was so tempted by the Palantir. Aragorn, similarly, was able to resist the temptation of the Ring so it is feasible that he would also been tempted to look in the Palantir if he had touched it, although somehow I think Aragorn could have even resisted such a temptation!!

[Linaewen]

Thank you both for your kind words! We certainly appreciate it.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I guess his power has diminished somewhat, but maybe Theoden gets a bonus on his saving throw because he's been talking to Gandalf!

I agree. By that stage, Saruman had gotten angry and so couldn't maintain 'control' of his voice power as well. And I like to think that Théoden had some kind of royal immunity almost to Saruman's power.

As for Elanor's point- I wonder who, other than Aragorn, could have turned the PalantÃ*r to their own uses. The Istari, Galadriel, Elrond etc? Is this mentioned somewhere? I should read UT again.

[The Gaffer]

The Palantir is SUCH a cool device, as metaphor and as instrument. It really blew me away how JRRT used it in this (and subsequent) chapters.

Because Pippin looks in the Stone, Sauron ultimately ends up believing that the Ring will come to Gondor, probably wielded by Aragorn. Aragorn reinforces this by confronting him, and whipping his sorry ass. The Wise Fool attacks too soon, and the Quest succeeds.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

As for Elanor's point- I wonder who, other than Aragorn, could have turned the PalantÃ*r to their own uses. The Istari, Galadriel, Elrond etc? Is this mentioned somewhere? I should read UT again.

It's probably cheating to reference later chapters at this stage, but IIRC Aragorn mentions how, as rightful owner of the Stone, he was able to take full control of it. I would imagine that no-one else could.

To understand this, I think we have to consider it as more than a mere "crystal ball" which requires some sort of mental arm-wrestling to control. A person's essence is drawn into it and it becomes a vehicle for more subtle coercion. Saruman and Denethor both succumb to Sauron via this channel, both in ways fitting their stature (much like the Ring).

This type of knowledge is intended for a specific kind of person (the Kings of Numenor) and for a specific purpose. It is dangerous for others to use it.

And yet the rewards it offers are tempting to even the wisest:

"Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would- to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!"

I agree this is an ultra-groovy line. The sort of thing that makes this book reward re-readings.

[Gordis]

Very good summary and interesting questions, Linaewen & Radagast the Brown.

It is really interesting, why the power of Saruman's voice had diminished so greatly.

Years ago Saruman managed to persuade the White Counsil to wait and not attack Dol Guldur, only Gandalf and Galadriel were not fully persuaded. Only half a year before, Saruman's voice could fool the Morgul Lord himself (UT).
And now he can't persuade even a mortal barbarian king like Theoden! Nor Eomer. Not even Gimli!

I think the answer to some of the questions lies in the fact that Gandalf's spirit has recently been to Valinor and reported either to the assembled Valar or to Eru himself. I believe that Gandalf told them about Curumo-Saruman's treachery. Curumo's case was judged and the fate of the fallen wizard was sealed.

Probably at that very moment the authority of the Valar's representative in ME was withdrawn from Saruman, along with a good part of his power. This power and authority was given to Gandalf the White instead: "Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been."

It may account for the fact that Saruman's voice has apparently lost most of his power.
It may account also for the fact that Saruman lost the abilitiy to perceive things far-off, the ability that Gandalf the White now has: "There is much that he does not know. … I look into his mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not. And he does not know of the quarrel between his servants and the Orcs of Mordor; nor does he know of the Winged Messenger."
And that has happened to Saruman before he lost his Palantir!

It seems that the Valar told Gandalf to give Saruman one last chance to redeem himself. That was always their way with other Ainur, always a second chance was offered. First to Morgoth, then to Sauron. Now to Saruman. Nothing like that with the elves or mortals.

So Gandalf gives Saruman the second chance. Saruman knows it is a genuine offer, but refuses it nonetheless. Then, as instructed by the Valar, Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff, the symbol of his office and of his allegiance to the Powers. Saruman knows that there will be no return to Valinor for him.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

great summary, i would just like to throw in this point at this stage:

in UT, it states that the palantiri had their poles and so on, and had to be set into an exact position to show anything other than a blank screen, so was it chance that pippin was able to set the palantir into the proper position on dol baran, or was some other force guiding it?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

great summary, i would just like to throw in this point at this stage:

in UT, it states that the palantiri had their poles and so on, and had to be set into an exact position to show anything other than a blank screen, so was it chance that pippin was able to set the palantir into the proper position on dol baran, or was some other force guiding it?

I was actually thinking about that myself, *stares at Lin *, and personally I can't see how is it all a coincidence. Gandlaf says himself, that if Pippin hand't checked the Palatir, he'd have tried it himself, something that can only harm in the war against Sauron. So, obviously, in a way it was a very good tihng that Pippin looked at it, somehow drawn to the Palantir, and somehow the poles placed in the right places+he stands directed to Barad Dur. Sounds way too odd to be a coincidence to me...

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I was actually thinking about that myself, *stares at Lin *, and personally I can't see how is it all a coincidence. Gandlaf says himself, that if Pippin hand't checked the Palatir, he'd have tried it himself, something that can only harm in the war against Sauron. So, obviously, in a way it was a very good tihng that Pippin looked at it, somehow drawn to the Palantir, and somehow the poles placed in the right places+he stands directed to Barad Dur. Sounds way too odd to be a coincidence to me...

Sorry, I had assumed it was Sauron's power over the Ithil-stone/the other palantiri. I hadn't read that bit about 'poles' properly. Very sorry.

Anyway, UT says that it was indeed 'by chance' that Pippin had set it in the proper position. But it does seem a very strange coincidence if it is one. I also think that there was probably some kind of force guiding it...

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Anyway, UT says that it was indeed 'by chance' that Pippin had set it in the proper position. But it does seem a very strange coincidence if it is one. I also think that there was probably some kind of force guiding it...

I remember that the Orthank stone was in connection with Barrad Dur for so long that anyone who looked in it was immediately connected to our Sau

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Some discussion points6) Page 585 in LotR: "In that case let Rohan look for its horses" - question is, wouldn't the horses be afraid of the Nazgul, like most animals we know of? The horses of the Nazgul were special, probably bred by Sauron in Mordor, and the fell beasts were... fell. Does it mean the Nazgul may not scare horses? Or some kinds of horses..?

Isn't it surprising that nobody has pounced at that question, given the heated debate on nazgul horses in the other thread?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Isn't it surprising that nobody has pounced at that question, given the heated debate on nazgul horses in the other thread?

not half as suprising no one from the other thread is not pouncing on you for not posting in the fellowship!

glad you are back CS: now to the fellowship go henceforth!


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I assume like Cs says: the stone was connected to Sauron's palantir: i.e their poles aligned till perhaps a will of adamant might steer it otherwise: the 2 stones could obviously communicate with each other: i do not see it as twiddling the stone round to point south-east or something in the same way as a tv aerial etc: more an exact mental or spiritual position etc


also: i think throughout we can see the wizards, with possible exception of radagast and the 2 AWOL wizards, were always quick to anger! Its a personality trait right enough.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I was actually thinking about that myself, *stares at Lin *, and personally I can't see how is it all a coincidence. Gandlaf says himself, that if Pippin hand't checked the Palatir, he'd have tried it himself, something that can only harm in the war against Sauron. So, obviously, in a way it was a very good tihng that Pippin looked at it, somehow drawn to the Palantir, and somehow the poles placed in the right places+he stands directed to Barad Dur. Sounds way too odd to be a coincidence to me...

What do you mean by "Poles" ?

Do you mean that all stones (palantirs) are designed to be open to the key stone?

The Stone of Osgiliath:
The Stone of Osgiliath was the chief and master of the seven palantiri in Middle-earth. It was one of the largest stones. The Stone of Osgiliath could survey all of the other palantiri at once and could "eavesdrop" on a communication between two other stones. It was kept in the Dome of Stars in Osgiliath. The Stone of Osgiliath was lost in the waters of the Anduin when the Dome of Stars was destroyed during the civil war of the Kin-strife in 1437 of the Third Age.

Radagast the Brown & Lin,

Nice summary. Short and to the point.

Regarding Saruman's voice, I think his failure at Orthanc was that he had too large an audience. I think it would have been easier to persuade people in smaller groups. IIRC, Tolkien even indicates such in the text. Saruman was being silvertongued to Theoden, while others were present and able to interupt Saruman's speech.

It also did not help Saruman that his deeds proved him to be a liar and an enemy. It would take a real snow job for Saruman to come out of the final meeting smelling as a rose.

9) “I have other things to do�, Saruman says. Does he really, at that point in time?
I think Saruman did not want to hear (paraphrasing, "You cannot win the ring so you might as well help us now."). He would rather begin cleaning Orthanc than be subserviant to another.

11) Why is Saruman’s emblem a White Hand?
I think this is were the expression "Talk to the hand, 'cause I don't understand originated". People that could not understand Saruman were directed to talk to the many hands that the lovely orcs were carrying around the countyside. White was chosen since he was known as
"Saruman the white".

Seriously, I think the color comes from his title: Saruman the White. I think the hand comes from Curumo which I think means skilled. A hand implying his handiwork and skill. It is just a guess, so take it at what it is worth.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

not half as suprising no one from the other thread is not pouncing on you for not posting in the fellowship!

glad you are back CS: now to the fellowship go henceforth!


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I assume like Cs says: the stone was connected to Sauron's palantir: i.e their poles aligned till perhaps a will of adamant might steer it otherwise: the 2 stones could obviously communicate with each other: i do not see it as twiddling the stone round to point south-east or something in the same way as a tv aerial etc: more an exact mental or spiritual position etc

I disagree: from UT we find that he had to stand on the right side (in the Orthanc stone - if he didn't, he wouldn't see anything), have the poles on the right order - meaning, the upper part up and the bottom on the ground. If it's not so, the stone would'nt work either - and it was apparently very hard to do it.
I agree though that if Pippin stood on the western side of the Palantir, north-west, he would get to Barad-Dur as happened. And only to Barad Dur, as this is the place the Orthanc stone was aimed to.

also: i think throughout we can see the wizards, with possible exception of radagast and the 2 AWOL wizards, were always quick to anger! Its a personality trait right enough.

But with this exception, we have only 2 wizards of 5 - Gandalf and Saruman.

[Butterbeer]

well fair enough on the palantir: i'll take your UT evidence on that! But of wizards two we know nothing of: perhaps they were so angry all the time they got themselves sent back - or went mad through sheer speed of annoyment???


Radagast was a gentle soul ( are you not? )

But both gandalf and saruman have a short temper and are quick both to laugh ( gandalf at least) and to flashes of anger.

so 2 out of three known i'd say!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well fair enough on the palantir: i'll take your UT evidence on that! But of wizards two we know nothing of: perhaps they were so angry all the time they got themselves sent back - or went mad through sheer speed of annoyment???

But both gandalf and saruman have a short temper and are quick both to laugh ( gandalf at least) and to flashes of anger.

so 2 out of three known i'd say!

Okay: but you can't say a sentence as 'wizards are quick to anger' is true based on 2 of them, even if it's from 3 known. And we don't even know how many Istari there were. (Although, maybe the Elves knew more of them, and it may be more acceptable)

Radagast was a gentle soul ( are you not? )

I'm convinced I am. Others seem to disagree.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Okay: but you can't say a sentence as 'wizards are quick to anger' is true based on 2 of them, even if it's from 3 known. And we don't even know how many Istari there were. (Although, maybe the Elves knew more of them, and it may be more acceptable)

.
Why, weren't there FIVE Istari?
Allatar and Pallando the Blue ones went East and never returned (UT).
But I think they passed through Rivendell and took part in the first White Counsils. Gildor (wasn't it his statement about "quick to anger"?) probably knew all of them. At least he knew Saruman and Gandalf quite well and that was all that mattered.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by gordis

.
Why, weren't there FIVE Istari?

Nope... from UT again - we can tell that their number is unknown, but the ones in the North were 5.

Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five.

(could find it online, couldn't find the other about the Palantiri)