Tolkien Imponderables

[Wally]

Since the other thread on Tolkien's errors and anachronisms is ruffling some feathers, I thought I'd try one that should upset no one.

There are many issues in LOTR alone that bear discussion, for Tolkien provided no explanations. For example:

1. In Moria, what were the Drums in the Deep. i.e., what made the sound? And what made the sound of the hammer tapping that Gimli heard?
2. Also in Moria, why did Gandalf tell everyone not to drink any of the water found there?

[Rían]

I didn't see any ruffled feathers I saw some good comments, several people saying it was a good thread, and a polite disagreement with some points in an article. Carry on! (BOTH threads)

[me9996]

1. The drums in the deap are likely giant drums brought by the orcs, and the hammer is likely Gimlis imagenation.

2. Gandalf likely warned against drinking the water as the place was full of orcs and who knows what they might have put in the water.

[Jon S.]

I, too, see nothing but cool, positive banter on that other thread.

The drums are Ludwigs. The hammer is Maxwell's. Some believe it was pure mithril but it was actually just regular silver.

[durinsbane2244]

and the water was infested with beatles? yeah...

[Earniel]

Not drinking stagnant water in dark and dirty underground caves? Sounds like common sense to me.

[Wally]

The wells I could understand, but it is hard to imagine that a stream could be so affected. Later, having escaped from Moria, the Company is warned by Gimli not to drink from the water of another stream, but for no reason other than "it is icy-cold". Still most mysterious.

Re the Drums in the Deep, it is hard to imagine that Orcs were making that noise 'in the deep'. This was heard after Peregrin dropped the stone down the well, and the sound seemed to come from far below them. The film was no help in this matter either.

All of the company heard the sound that Gimli identified as the tapping of a hammer, this following the Drums in the Deep. Both apparently had something to do with the Balrog, but I'm dipped if I can figure out what.

Another imponderable - when Wormtongue absconded with the Palantir in Orthanc to throw it down at Gandalf and company (or Saruman), it would have been uncovered for some time. Why then would Sauron have remained ignorant of the goings-on there? This was most important as he was fooled by Peregrin's later appearance, to his great cost.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Wally

The wells I could understand, but it is hard to imagine that a stream could be so affected. Later, having escaped from Moria, the Company is warned by Gimli not to drink from the water of another stream, but for no reason other than "it is icy-cold". Still most mysterious.

Re the Drums in the Deep, it is hard to imagine that Orcs were making that noise 'in the deep'. This was heard after Peregrin dropped the stone down the well, and the sound seemed to come from far below them. The film was no help in this matter either.

All of the company heard the sound that Gimli identified as the tapping of a hammer, this following the Drums in the Deep. Both apparently had something to do with the Balrog, but I'm dipped if I can figure out what.

Another imponderable - when Wormtongue absconded with the Palantir in Orthanc to throw it down at Gandalf and company (or Saruman), it would have been uncovered for some time. Why then would Sauron have remained ignorant of the goings-on there? This was most important as he was fooled by Peregrin's later appearance, to his great cost.

Sauron can't control Saruman's palantir. Neither has the Master Stone. And the palantir is limited, and the user "controls" it---i. e. it wouldn't automatically show Sauron what was going on unless Sauron specifically directed his attention there with the stone. Since it appears that the joint mission to recover the hobbits at Parth Galen have not produced the hobbits on the East Side of the River, and Saurman hasn't reported in, Sauron sends a winged Nazgul. The appearance of Pippin in the stone simply confimrs Sauron's misunderstanding.

[Wally]

Well, I won't argue about the Palantir, although Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron had always had the upper hand when Saruman and Denethor had used it.

To that effect, I wonder how Denethor managed to keep secret the fact that Frodo had the ring and was headed for Mordor.

Anyway - a new imponderable:

Assuming that Gandalf had escaped from Moria with everyone else, what do you think his plans would have been thereafter? Much later, he seemed aghast that Frodo was reported by Faramir as heading to Cirith Ungol. But this would have implied that he had expected Frodo to enter via the Black Gate. Thus, had all the Company survived and stayed together, would they have then gone to the Black Gate to try to find a way in?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Wally

To that effect, I wonder how Denethor managed to keep secret the fact that Frodo had the ring and was headed for Mordor.

IIRC, Sauron was not able to read Denethor's mind or cause the palantir to lie. Denethor was able to be master of his own mind and not lose control to Sauron.

Sauron was able, though, to influence what Denethor was able to see with the palantir. (How I am not sure.)

Originally Posted by Wally

Assuming that Gandalf had escaped from Moria with everyone else, what do you think his plans would have been thereafter? Much later, he seemed aghast that Frodo was reported by Faramir as heading to Cirith Ungol. But this would have implied that he had expected Frodo to enter via the Black Gate. Thus, had all the Company survived and stayed together, would they have then gone to the Black Gate to try to find a way in?

I think they might have continued to the falls and then parted ways. Boromir, Legolas, Merry, Pippin and Gimli to Minas Tirith
and Aragorn, Mithrandir, Frodo, and Sam to Mordor.

I do not know if Mithrandir would have had a plan for entering Mordor in secret.

I do not know how Mithrandir could have entered Mordor without Sauron knowing.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Wally

Assuming that Gandalf had escaped from Moria with everyone else, what do you think his plans would have been thereafter?

I suspect that he would be carrying Galadriel's "design" ("if MY designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey.."(The Fellowhip of the Ring), which is, logictically, was about a preservation of the Ring, contrary to others who were talking about it's destruction.
" We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then... -" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)...
He knew about an inevitable split of the Fellowship from the beginning, so the response should be like:"The rest of the group have to cross Anduin and take our way through a Dead Marshes to Morannon." Seems it's no reason in withholding the course of the journey from the company.
Then, why he is wisely not ending the sentence?
On my opinion, because, according to the "design", the Ring should again dissapear forever in the waters of the river, and if it will happen, it's no reason to build up of going far away plans.

[storm_krowe]

As far as what Gandalf planned beyond Moria, I think it would have been more likely that he, Frodo and Sam would have gone to Mordor, while sending at least Aragorn and Boromir to Minas Tirith. The whole point of Aragorn's journey was to take over kingship. As for how Gandalf would have sneaked in to Mordor, that's not certain, but remember, it was Gandalf who sneaked in to the "Necromancer's" hold when Sauron was in the North under a different guise. However Gandalf sneaked in there, he might have employed a similar ruse in Mordor.
Taken from Gandalf's words from the council of Elrond, his plans were surely to destroy the ring. (To paraphrase, we can't just drop it in the sea, because seas and lands change, we need to destroy it permanently.) As for Gandalf being the leader... those words referred to his leadership of the wizard's council instead Saruman... in which instance, the ring's discovery and destruction would likely have happened sooner, before Sauron again rose to such power.

[Olmer]

The whole point of Aragorn's journey was to USURP the kingship.
The crown and the throne are not things to be handed over to a bum with a dubious origin. He needed a lot of luck and a help which only a wizard could provide. Particulary, Gandalf.

Taken from Gandalf's words from the council of Elrond, his plans were surely to stay behind and watch what will happen to the ring. This demonstrates how "eager" he was to destroy the Ring.

Discovery of the Ring wouldn't change a thing for Sauron. Whatever explanations have been concocted by Gandalf are just his guess work. He did not know Sauron's intentions.
In fact, Sauron already has been govering Middle-earth. Without the Ring's help.
Is not it odd that all kingdoms of ME, exept a sparsely populated with people and elves South-Western part, were pledged loyalty not to Gondor, but to Sauron, and were fighting for him even after his downfall?
Sauron did not have a desire to use the Ring to rule Arda. What for? He was the Lord of Middle earth. He just has to sit back and watch the natural course of events: Аrnor fell apart, Gondor was withering away, herds of elves were packing theirs suitcases and going on the better pasture...
So, who was left out?"...

[Valandil]

Olmer... you're getting it all mixed up again.

Sauron was the BAD guy... Gandalf, Aragorn, the Elves... THEY were the good guys!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Sauron was the BAD guy... Gandalf, Aragorn, the Elves... THEY were the good guys!

Yeah! This is what hobbits were saying in theirs Red Book.
But this is only hobbit's point of view, which is, naturally, could be quite incomplete and inconsistent.

In the world is nothing White and Black, but much more as Gray, and the same facts can have another interpretations .
On the bookshelves in Rivendale and in the library of Minas-Tirith were other historical documents, which I happened to read.
As they say the historical recording usually varies depending on the point of view of the chronicler.

Tolkien himself has been trying to expand the information, by filling the gaps in his stories with his later writings and explanations, sometimes being himself very surprised by unexpected controverting interpretations of the events.
He just did not have enough time or energy to tie all loose ends up, othervise eventually he would see that "another side of the coin" of his stories is getting much more obvious with farther delving into his historical sources.

[Gordis]

I agree that Sauron didn't REALLY need the Ring to conquer ME. He was on the way to it and was preparing for the last war. But he was not yet ready in 3018. If not for the finding of the One, he would likely wait for some time (10 years, 300 years - who knows with those immortal ones? ) before attacking.
But once the One was found, he was afraid that someone - especially another Maia - would use it against him. So he started the war earlier than planned.

As for Gandalf's ORIGINAL plan for the quest I guess the following:

To Minas-Tirith: Aragorn, Gandalf, Boromir, Gimli, Legolas
To Mordor - the 4 hobbits and GOLLUM.

I am sure Gandalf planned to use Gollum as the guide very early in the game - once he learned that the wretch knew secret ways into Mordor. Four hobbits instead of two wouldn't be so vulnerable while travelling with him. Only hobbits were resistant to Ring enough to let them into Mordor.

Aragorn surely was meant to go to Minas Tirith to take the crown. Gandalf himself, most likely was going to go with him, I agree with Olmer. Boromir was to come with them - the idea was, I think, to turn him to Aragorn's side during the journey. (I guess in the divine Plan instead of Boromir it should have been Faramir, as Faramir was the one who saw the Dream many times and F was Gandalf's old pupil).
Gimli would be useless in Mordor - Drarwes were not famous for their stealth. And Gimli and Legolas were mostly observers, sent by their respective realms to make sure the Noldor and the Wise won't make a mess with the Rings of Power AGAIN. Both the Dwarves and Mirkwood Elves distrusted the White Counsil. So Gimli and Legolas would have made sure that the hobbits were well on their way, without any meddling Men or wizards or Noldor and then continue quietly to defend Minas Tirith.

I guess Gandalf asked Thranduil to let Gollum escape after some time. The Wizard needed him free and he knew that Gollum would catch up with them. Gandalf was not at all surprised to find Gollum in Moria - glad even.
Thranduil likely became suspicious about the whole story. Gandalf and Aragorn was using his Realm for their own ends, coming and going, bringing strange creatures and keeping him in the dark. And he was the closest neighbour of Dol Guldur for ages and was not even given a Ring of Power to defend himself. (Because really, guys, wasn't it fairer to give Narya to Thranduil?) So, I guess, one day Thranduil bristled - "tell me everything or else..." And the consensus was reached when Gandalf and Aragorn accepted Legolas as observer.

EDIT: Also, I guess that the plan to draw Sauron's gaze to Minas Tirith instead of his own borders was an early element of the plan. They had to provoke Sauron somehow to start the war early, once they were sure that the hobbits were at the borders of Mordor. As the story played out, they used then Palantir for that, but before they may have planned to attack Osgiliath or Ithilien, for instance, to draw Sauron's forces out.

[Beren3000]

Great thread, Wally!
Wow, it's been so long since I last posted here! I hope to fix that
About Gandalf's plans for the Fellowship after Moria, I don't think he had any (good enough reason for him not finishing his sentence, Olmer?) I think he was just going to "wait and see" how things will play out. Or better yet, his foresight was failing him beyond Moria because he was about to die in there.

Originally Posted by Wally

To that effect, I wonder how Denethor managed to keep secret the fact that Frodo had the ring and was headed for Mordor.

I agree with mithrand1r. In fact, we're to understand that it was Denethor's resistance to Sauron's will that drove him to insanity.

Here's what I've thought about a lot (my imponderable, if you will)
Do you think that if Boromir had survived he would've hailed Aragorn as king?
I personally think that Tolkien killed off Boromir for that very reason: he thought it uncharacteristic of Boromir to have accepted Aragorn.
Olmer, I'd be especially interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject. I like your reading of how it was "planned" for Faramir rather than Boromir to come along. (Remember "Olorin" means "the giver of dreams" ) So do you think that Gandalf and Aragorn could've really gotten Boromir on board with the whole Kinghsip thing?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by storm_krowe

As for Gandalf being the leader... those words referred to his leadership of the wizard's council instead Saruman.

Those words referred not to the leadership of the White Council, but to becoming Galadriel's appointee in realization of HER plan, which somehow was different than the General plan, agreed on by majority of the White Council.

Originally Posted by storm_krowe

...it was Gandalf who sneaked in to the "Necromancer's" hold when Sauron was in the North under a different guise.

His "sneaking" is very questionable. More realistic is that Sauron did not want a confrontation at that time and let him enter the citadel.. Maybe they even had a kind of peaceful talk, which made Gandalf so comfortable, that he became a frequent visitor of Dol Guldur. Which is telling me that two Maiar have come to a some kind of agreement.

Originally Posted by Gordis

...he was afraid that someone - especially another Maia - would use it against him.

Maybe he was afraid, remembering how the wielders of other Rings of Power overrided him on the plateau of Gorgoroth, forcing him to come out and fight without the support of magic. But then he tried very hard to inform all interested parties that the Ring of Power has surfaced again and it's up for take.
I'm more and more inclining toward Valandil's suggestion that Sauron actually changed his plans about the Ring and was intending to destroy it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Boromir was to come with them - the idea was, I think, to turn him to Aragorn's side during the journey.

In my POW Boromir was a loose end, which was successfuly eliminated near Rauros. It has been in the General design, because Denethor, supported by Boromir and not so sure, but still loyal to his father and a hero brother Faramir, would make the "Operation King Elessar" a hell more difficult, if not totally impossible.This why Galadriel gave as a gift to a great warrier, not a sword, of something which would be useful in the endless struggles with enemies, but a useless belt. She knew that his days are counted.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I guess Gandalf asked Thranduil to let Gollum escape after some time.

Agree on the observers.
But I think Gandalf himself organized the escape of Gollum.Thranduil couldn't be so cooperative, knowing that he has been used.
If you look close at it, you can't help wondering: somebody is penetraiting in the heart of Thranduil's kingdom, passing all elves' watchers, taking off guards who can see and hear miles away so fast, that they even did not raise an alarm, and taking Gollum out of the elves' domain so covertly, that for some time nobody even realised that they had been ander an attack. Such deeply undercover operation couldn't be done by the gang of unsofisticated orcs.
Thranduil has had some valid reason to worry about, and he sent Legolas to figure out what is going on, and to get an advise.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I think he was just going to "wait and see" how things will play out. Or better yet, his foresight was failing him beyond Moria because he was about to die in there.

"Wait and see" was his original plan. Remember, he did not volunteer to go with Frodo. Sam did. He was planning to stay behind, and even when he was pressed to give a definite answer, he was looking for an excuse, like Elrond's OK (Pf!! Maia asking a permit from not even 100% elf) So, maybe, it's true that he did not form far reached plans, hoping that somehow he will get off the hook. And he did, but (alas!) sent back again.

An exellent point about the "giver of dreams"! (Slapping my forehead with a palm and abandoning my idea of Sauron's influence )

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

An exellent point about the "giver of dreams"! (Slapping my forehead with a palm and abandoning my idea of Sauron's influence )

I remember that the possibility that it was Gandalf-Olorin who gave Faramir and Boromir this dream was already discussed at length.
Unfortunately, we have discovered that Gandalf was far away from Gondor at this time - he was in the Shire, IIRC.
So, unless Gandalf was able to make long-distance dreams, it looks like the work of another meddling Power. Maybe High-Ups from Valinor (like in the case of this suspicious West Wind at the Pelennor).

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

...unless Gandalf was able to make long-distance dreams, it looks like the work of another meddling Power.

ESP is a normal human's brains ability (although being in a primodial stage in majority of population), which allowed a person to receive a mental information from another side of the globe, even being deep under the ocean. According to studies of Russian and USA scientists every forth person is getting a response on messages sent from far away, a few in a form of visual dreams, but all - in a greater brain activity and higher blod pressure.

So, if it possible for a human to sent a message from distant lands, than for Olorin it will be a child play.