The dwarven rings

[Tinman]

Does any one know what the dwarven rings were supposed to do? Obviously enslave the will of the 7 dwarves who wore them. But where they supposed to have any secondary ability? I know the dwarves, because of their design, were not correctly effected by them. But this was not saurons intention. Is it possible they should have had a secondary ability, much like the three elven rings, that was nullified due to the dwarfs resilience?

[Gordis]

Little is known about the Seven.

I can only recommend this excellent FAQ of the Rings source: FAQ of the Rings 7 and 9 Everything known is there and well referenced.

And Welcome to the Moot, Tinman!

[Tinman]

So since its fairly safe to assume the 9 did not have their rings, and sauron did not put them back into circulation, then the 3 remaining dwarf rings were also probably just collecting dust in his basement?

[Gordis]

Sauron had 9 fingers left - great to wear the Nine
As for the remaining Dwarven rings: how about two earrings and one nose ring?

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Sauron had 9 fingers left - great to wear the Nine
As for the remaining Dwarven rings: how about two earrings and one nose ring?

Har Har...

I was however working on a theory that Sauron had recaptured, and redistributed the 3 remaining dwarf rings.

Saruman is mentioned as having a ring on his finger when gandalf first meets him. One of the only details provided to physically describe him at that point, leading me to believe its a fairly important fact.

The Mouth of sauron was so old he forgot his own name, much like one who had an extended life from the use of a ring of power.

The witchking also seemed to be on a power level above the other 8, and I had attributed this to the possibility of an additional ring of power.

Also... 9 of the fellowship for the 9 black riders... the 3 dwarven rings to challenge the 3 elven rings... I liked the "parallelness" in my mind....

Just toying with some theory.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Saruman is mentioned as having a ring on his finger when gandalf first meets him. One of the only details provided to physically describe him at that point, leading me to believe its a fairly important fact.

In the drafts published in HOME 7, Saruman was said to have gathered "the last of the 19". Later Tolkien seemed to abandon this idea, and as the text stands now it looks like Saruman made a ring for himself. He calls himself "Ring-maker:

For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!

The original idea, IIRC, was that this Ring was providing the link between Sauron and Saruman - the function later taken over by a Palantir. Now the Ring is a dead-end mentioned only once.

The Mouth of sauron was so old he forgot his own name, much like one who had an extended life from the use of a ring of power.

Oh no, the Mouth was not too old. It is a common mistake to consider him some sort of Second Age relict. He was of Black Numenorean race, so normally he would live to 120-150. We know he "entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again" - and that happened in TA 2951. (Barad-Dur had been destroyed after the Last Alliance victory and rebuilt only once: after TA 2951). Thus by 3019 the Mouth had served Sauron only for 68 years. If he were 20 at the beginning, by the time of the War of the Ring he would be around 88 - the age of Aragorn and with many years yet to live. He had nice plans to rule Orthanc.

The witchking also seemed to be on a power level above the other 8, and I had attributed this to the possibility of an additional ring of power.

It is too complicated, IMO - to take Witchy's own Ring and give him another one.

Don't you think that Sauron needed the power of the 7 and 9 himself - while he had no Ruling Ring?
I would speculate the Necromancer's growing Power was directly dependant on him collecting the Rings.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Didn't Sauron offer a Dwarven ring to Dain in exchange for turning in Bilbo? Or am I misremembering?

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Oh no, the Mouth was not too old. It is a common mistake to consider him some sort of Second Age relict. He was of Black Numenorean race, so normally he would live to 120-150. We know he "entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again" - and that happened in TA 2951. (Barad-Dur had been destroyed after the Last Alliance victory and rebuilt only once: after TA 2951). Thus by 3019 the Mouth had served Sauron only for 68 years. If he were 20 at the beginning, by the time of the War of the Ring he would be around 88 - the age of Aragorn and with many years yet to live. He had nice plans to rule Orthanc.

I've heard mixed interpretations on this. Including that "when it first rose again" refers to the dark lords power, not that dark tower, which would put him at over 3000 years old. This fits much better with the idea that mouth had forgotten his own name... something that not even gollum did after 500 years of calling himself "Gollum" and "Precious". I find it hard to believe, no matter how forgetful one is, that he could forget his own name after only 60 years.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Tinman

I've heard mixed interpretations on this. Including that "when it first rose again" refers to the dark lords power, not that dark tower, which would put him at over 3000 years old. This fits much better with the idea that mouth had forgotten his own name... something that not even gollum did after 500 years of calling himself "Gollum" and "Precious". I find it hard to believe, no matter how forgetful one is, that he could forget his own name after only 60 years.

That's why I call it a common mistake. Reading "tower" as "power" is simply a tweak - no one has the right to do this with canonic text. Mordor had never been occupied by Numenor, nor was its power or tower broken. After the Downfall, Sauron simply returned home.

Also, it is plainly said that Mouth was "not a Ringwraith but a mortal Men". That means he can't be 3000 years old.

I think all this confusion comes from misunderstanding about Black Numenoreans. This people was not extinct in the Second Age, they continued to live in Umbar and Harad. Queen Beruthiel was of that people - and considered noble enough (and long-lived enough) to marry a King of Gondor. There was no fuss about that, not like with Vidumavi. The Mouth was probably her distant kinsman.

As for forgetting his name... Unlike Gollum The Mouth likely wanted to forget his own name - so he did. It can be done in much less than 68 years.

I guess he took immense pride in his unique title,"The Mouth of Sauron", that's why he stopped using his former ordinary name.
Another reason must be that he wished everybody else to forget his real name, as knowing it another sorcerer could harm him. To keep your real name top secret is a very clever thing to do in Mordor.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

That's why I call it a common mistake. Reading "tower" as "power" is simply a tweak - no one has the right to do this with canonic text. Mordor had never been occupied by Numenor, nor was its power or tower broken. After the Downfall, Sauron simply returned home.

Barad-Dur was destroyed except for its foundations, Gandalf says. I take this to mean that Sauron rebuilt the aboveground portions of the Dark Tower but not the underground portions, which perhaps contained the dungeons and some magical areas?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Barad-Dur was destroyed except for its foundations, Gandalf says. I take this to mean that Sauron rebuilt the aboveground portions of the Dark Tower but not the underground portions, which perhaps contained the dungeons and some magical areas?

Yea, that is correct. BD had been destroyed (except for foundations) at the very beginning of the TA. In rebuilding BD in 2951 Sauron must have used the old undamaged foundation, strainghtened by the One Ring. That was why the Tower tumbled down when the One was destroyed.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Didn't Sauron offer a Dwarven ring to Dain in exchange for turning in Bilbo? Or am I misremembering?

He offered all the three remaining ones.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Didn't Sauron offer a Dwarven ring to Dain in exchange for turning in Bilbo? Or am I misremembering?

Glóin reported at the Council of Elrond that the messenger of Mordor (the messenger’s description befits a Nazgûl) offered “three rings that the Dwarf sires possessed of old .. and the realm of Moria” in exchange for Bilbo and “a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole.”

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Does any one know what the dwarven rings were supposed to do? Obviously enslave the will of the 7 dwarves who wore them. But where they supposed to have any secondary ability? I know the dwarves, because of their design, were not correctly effected by them. But this was not saurons intention. Is it possible they should have had a secondary ability, much like the three elven rings, that was nullified due to the dwarfs resilience?

All of the rings had the power to slow decay and preserve things (from a Tolkien letter) - The elves used this power to maintain their kingdoms, Men became undead - My guess is that dwarves were resistant to this ability or used it to preserve wealth.

The rings give power according to the measure of each possessor (Galadriel says this in The Fellowship of the Ring). The power conferred to a dwarven wielder would be similarly affected.

As far as Dwarves go... "they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts..." (Simarillion). The dwarves are resistant to the rings powers of domination however, the rings did make them wealthy and greedy.

I think the main secondary power for the dwarven rings was about wealth accumulation (corrupting that to greed seems obvious). I'm not sure if another secondary power is needed as wealth might be all that a dwarf-lord would want.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT seems to suggest that the 9 and the 7 were the same things and that the difference in the powers they gave was due to the differences between the wearers.