What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR

[Curufin]

Curu, lol.

Where are you going to get ordinary people, who buy tickets to see a movie, up to speed on the ancestry of Elrond?

Hey, it isn't my fault that Joe Schmoe movie goer is an illiterate buffoon.

Elrond loses his daughter. That IS an element in Tolkien's story, and a reasonably important one. It's also something people can relate to. They have families. Most of them do NOT have an historic ancestry that brings the focus of the End of an Age into their personal path.

Quite so. But most people don't have to carry a magical ring that turns you invisible and is the embodiment of evil straight into the fires of hell, either, but they seemed to accept that alright.

Most of these purist quibbles would result in there being no movie, at all.

*sigh* Wouldn't that have been a beautiful thing?

There were an awful lot of pages in LOTR, guys. Too many to film. And trying to drag in any of those other pieces of posthumous work...well, it's flat out impossible.

Granted. And I'm not that upset with "cutting" stuff. I'm fine that they cut Bombadil, Gildor ( *sniff) and Glorfindel. I can understand that. It's the stuff they added in and the stuff they changed that annoyed me. Think what they could have done with the ten minutes that they wasted on the warg attack and the horse snogging. Instead they could have had Aragorn sing all or part of the Eärendil Was a Mariner song, and introduce Elrond's ancestry.

Now, you may say, "Then don't make the movie." That's a point of view. Personally, my interest in the New Testament falls off sharply when Paul arrives...I liked the earlier characters, better. And, of course, there are people who take no notice of the New Testament at all. But if you assume someone WILL be filming the movie, it comes with the assumption that they'll be cutting some. And if you were filming the New Testament, insisting on a flashback to Daniel in the Lion's Den would be... Well, stupid. Even if it DOES importantly presage the mercy of the appearence of Christ at all.

Sure. And as I said, cutting isn't a problem. Changing is.

But I don't ever think you'd make a decent film out of the Sil. It's designed for a grand ballet.

If they tried I think my head would spin around 360 degrees and I'd vomit all over them.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I agree. "Men are weak," was one of Elrond's lines, as was, "the blood of Numenor is all but spent." Awful misanthropic stuff definitely reminiscent of Thingol.

[BeardofPants]

It's just a movie. Not a war in Iraq. There is no good or bad. More fans to Tolkien's 'legendarium' is all good though. We probably wouldn't be having this quibble if not for the movies.

*does her I-AM-SUPERIOR-COS-I-LIKED-TOLKIEN-BEFORE-THE-MOVIES-DANCE

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

*breathy sigh, bats eyes*

Did someone mention Orlando Bloom? *Sigh* I have a giant poster of his adorable face gazing past a longbow, right now. *blows kisses*

Gee. People who are obsessed with the cutenes of movie actors are so entirely different from people who are obsessed with imaginary mythology.

added to say, great minds think alike, BoP. But let's try to be nice. This one's a good'un.

[Curufin]

does her I-AM-SUPERIOR-COS-I-LIKED-TOLKIEN-BEFORE-THE-MOVIES-DANCE

*pouts*

Gee. People who are obsessed with the cutenes of movie actors are so entirely different from people who are obsessed with imaginary mythology.

*pouts again*

[Curufin]

FTR, how do you measure a 'real' fan? By what yard stick to we all have to measure up before we become 'true fans' in your eyes?

Just read this and realized that I sounded far snottier in my post than I meant to. There's what comes from talking on the phone and posting at the same time. I apologize to anyone I offended.

It's not my place to judge who is a 'true fan' and who isn't. The one place I would draw the line is that I wouldn't consider people who have just seen the movies and not read one word of Tolkien and have no intention of doing so as being Tolkien fans. Movie fans, perhaps. Lord of the Rings fans - might be stretching it, but I could be convinced.

As for people who have read the books - who am I to judge who is a true fan or not? Some decisions are better left to Eru and the fan themselves.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

On PURPOSE? Great heavens, where?

Eru, I keep missing posts!

Let's see, where.

New York. Chicago. Cincinnati. Dayton. Philadelphia. Greenville, SC. Tampa. New Orleans. Louisville, KY. Bloomington, IN. Kalamazoo, MI. Milwaukee, WI. Peoria, IL, Evansville, IN.

And I generally saw it more than once (up to four times) in one place.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

*does her I-AM-SUPERIOR-COS-I-LIKED-TOLKIEN-BEFORE-THE-MOVIES-DANCE

*remembers when this actually still was an issue here on the 'moot*

There's enough to find as fault in the movies and -I think- enough to enjoy but if they hadn't been there, we'd have had a good couple of years without any movie to talk about! Real fans or no.

[BeardofPants]

FTR, how do you measure a 'real' fan? By what yard stick to we all have to measure up before we become 'true fans' in your eyes?

[Jon S.]

I know I'm only going to embarrass myself with this next post but Curufin, my good man, as someone who was a total Tolkien/LOTR freak by at least several years before you were born, it is my distinguished opinion, as "a venerable and true LOTR fan," that PJ's movies, while imperfect, are wonderful to have available to us. But what the heck do I know, anyway, I like Jimi's version of All Along the Watchtower, too.

[Curufin]

I never meant to accuse anyone here of not being a fan. Please don't think I did.

[Earniel]

If you're replying to my post, then have no worries. If you're replying to Jon S. then I think you shouldn't worry too much either, if the smiley is anything to go by.

[Curufin]

Good.

I guess it's perhaps that us New-to-Tolkien purists feel the need to prove ourselves, and sometimes we can get a bit...over-enthusiastic about it. Especially when we found Tolkien through the movies to start with.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Trust me, Curu, everyone here (well, maybe one exception ) who has talked to you is just raggin' on you a little. A baptism of fire, it ain't. And I never before "met" anyone who did the Phish thing with Les Miz.

You should see some of MY scars from early posting here.

I might have to draw up a rocker next to me here for Jon S., though. Pleased ta meetcha.

[Nautipus]

I'll second that sentiment. I practically limp. It's always good to get some new people in once in a while though.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Wow, what a busy day in this thread! Funny, I seem to agree with Curufin regarding the movies and with sis..etc. about HoME.

I feel like the great majority of Tolkien's work that was worth publishing got published in the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales (even parts of UT aren't great, IMO). HoME is interesting and a useful resource but I don't feel that it needs to supersede what was published in the instances where they disagree. For instance, I feel that the concept of Gil-Galad being the son of Fingon holds as much weight as him being the son of Orodreth.

I'm going to wax philosophical a bit here and say that once something is written, it exists; in some universe it IS. An alternative may be subsequently created but the first draft always is and in some sense must always be. This is especially so if the former is published, because the more read a story is (or version of a story) the more minds that reality inhabits, adding substance and validity to that particular world.

[Curufin]

Yes, from 1999-2001 I was a Les Mis groupie.

DPR - What about essays like Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, which I think is the most beautiful thing Tolkien ever wrote?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Wow, what a busy day in this thread! Funny, I seem to agree with Curufin regarding the movies and with sis..etc. about HoME.

I feel like the great majority of Tolkien's work that was worth publishing got published in the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales (even parts of UT aren't great, IMO). HoME is interesting and a useful resource but I don't feel that it needs to supersede what was published in the instances where they disagree. For instance, I feel that the concept of Gil-Galad being the son of Fingon holds as much weight as him being the son of Orodreth.

I'm going to wax philosophical a bit here and say that once something is written, it exists; in some universe it IS. An alternative may be subsequently created but the first draft always is and in some sense must always be. This is especially so if the former is published, because the more read a story is (or version of a story) the more minds that reality inhabits, adding substance and validity to that particular world.

Heinlein. Multiple person solipsism.

Originally Posted by Nautipus

I'll second that sentiment. I practically limp. It's always good to get some new people in once in a while though.

I might have administered some of those. Sorry, my friend. (((HUGS))))

Originally Posted by Curufin

Yes, from 1999-2001 I was a Les Mis groupie.

DPR - What about essays like Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, which I think is the most beautiful thing Tolkien ever wrote?

lol. Yeah. We'd picked that up.

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I might have administered some of those. Sorry, my friend. (((HUGS))))

Is okay, my friend. It all worked (((HUG BACK)))

[BeardofPants]

Hey curu, no worries. You never lived through some of the older purist/non-purist debates back in the day when the movies first came out... Now those were scarring.

What was it back then, earn? "If you weren't on entmoot before the movies came out, you weren't really a real tolkien fan", lol. How times change.