What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you have to back it up with something from the book.

In the movie - yes, Frodo is a sissy and a dull sissy throughout.

In the book Saruman (a good judge of characters I think) comments:

If Saruman was a good judge of character, he would have won.

Frodo: As master of Bag End, Frodo felt it his painful duty to say goodbye to the guests. Rumours of strange events had by now spread all over the field, but Frodo would only say no doubt everything will be cleared up in the morning.Fellowship pg 63.

Name one fun thing Frodo ever did. Even the "hey diddle diddle" business starts with "Frodo was annoyed." Fellowship pg 215

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

IFrodo: As master of Bag End, Frodo felt it his painful duty to say goodbye to the guests. Rumours of strange events had by now spread all over the field, but Frodo would only say no doubt everything will be cleared up in the morning.Fellowship pg 63.

Even the "hey diddle diddle" business starts with "Frodo was annoyed." Fellowship pg 215

and ends with "It was now Frodo's turn to feel pleased with himself. He capered about on the table; and when he came a second time to the cow jumped over the Moon, he leaped in the air."

And do you think that Pippin wouldn't be compelled to say goodbye to the guests if HE became the Master of Bag-End? One has obligations, after all.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gordis

He was not much different from other respectable hobbits – only a bit more given to reflection and wandering alone. But - while he was young, he used to steal Maggot’s mushrooms. Not Pippin and Merry (as in the films), but Frodo. In the books Merry, for instance, was no less responsible than Frodo, and Sam was doubly and triply so.

And was it being responsible behaving like this?

And that was already after he learned that he and his ring were wanted by Sauron!

And that’s what they were doing on the eve of the departure:


Not to mention FRODO’s song in the Pony and HIS table-dancing.

(By the way that’s why I blame the films – after seeing PJ’s stuff, people tend to forget the facts from the books.)


He may not have known Frodo, but he knew other hobbits:

Are you saying, "as a young man, he stole produce, and as an adult, he raised a glass with friends"? That doesn't even rate "Tookish." He's glum. And no fun.

Saruman was a very poor judge of character, starting with misjudging the White Council.

Originally Posted by Gordis

and ends with "It was now Frodo's turn to feel pleased with himself. He capered about on the table; and when he came a second time to the cow jumped over the Moon, he leaped in the air."

And do you think that Pippin wouldn't be compelled to say goodbye to the guests if HE became the Master of Bag-End? One has obligations, after all.

Frodo has nothing but obligations. He's a drudge. And that's not PJ's fault, it's Tolkien's. You probably don't know much about how actors work, but the key is making bold choices. Tolkien's version of Frodo has darn few of those available.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Are you saying, "as a young man, he stole produce, and as an adult, he raised a glass with friends"? That doesn't even rate "Tookish." He's glum. And no fun.

Then who of the hobbits is fun - according to you? Ted? Lotho? Sam? Merry? Pippin? And what fun things did any of them ever made?

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Saruman was a very poor judge of character, starting with misjudging the White Council.

He has judged them and fooled them ALL well enough, including the oh-so-wise Gandy.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Frodo has nothing but obligations. He's a drudge. And that's not PJ's fault, it's Tolkien's. You probably don't know much about how actors work, but the key is making bold choices. Tolkien's version of Frodo has darn few of those available.

And PJ's versoin of Frodo has none available whatsoever - a perpetual close-up on Frodo's frightened tearful eyes. All his moments of glory he had in the books were denied him.

By the way, Earniel - I think this discussion - starting with this post:

I think Tolkien's Frodo is kind of a straw man. That's not unusual for a writer of JRR's academic background.... etc

would fare much better in LOTR Books forum. After all, we are discussing Tolkien's Frodo -whether he was a flat and dull character. As for PJ's Frodo he doesn't even deserve a discussion, IMO.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Then who of the hobbits is fun - according to you? Ted? Lotho? Sam? Merry? Pippin? And what fun things did any of them ever made?

Pippin. "Come and have your breakfast. The bread tastes almost as good as it did last night. I did not want to leave you any, but Sam insisted." Frodo sat down between Sam and began to eat....discussion, riders, sniffing..."In that case, I'm sure Gildor would have refused to discuss it!" said Frodo sharply."And now leave me in peace, for a bit! I don't want to answer a string of questions while I am eating. I want to think!"

"Good heavens" said Pippin. "At breakfast?"

Frodo is cranky. He's always cranky.

By the way, Earniel - I think this discussion - starting with this post:
would fare much better in LOTR Books forum. After all, we are discussing Tolkien's Frodo -whether he was a flat and dull character. As for PJ's Frodo he doesn't even deserve a discussion, IMO.

Agreed. We'll call the thread, "Frodo is a bore", and I'm thread starter.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Pippin. "Come and have your breakfast. The bread tastes almost as good as it did last night. I did not want to leave you any, but Sam insisted." Frodo sat down between Sam and began to eat....discussion, riders, sniffing..."In that case, I'm sure Gildor would have refused to discuss it!" said Frodo sharply."And now leave me in peace, for a bit! I don't want to answer a string of questions while I am eating. I want to think!"

"Good heavens" said Pippin. "At breakfast?"

Pippin is the only one of them under-age: twenty-eight or twenty-nine.
There is a reason for him to act more childishly. Frodo, on the other hand, is 50 - the oldest. He may not look 50, but he surely feels like it. He is no child anymore and no moron.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Pippin is the only one of them under-age: twenty-eight or twenty-nine.
There is a reason for him to act more childishly. Frodo, on the other hand, is 50 - the oldest. He may not look 50, but he surely feels like it. He is no child anymore and no moron.

You can be young. You can be old. You can be a bore.

Frodo is two of those things. They aren't necessarily related.

Bilbo was the same age, and he wasn't a drag.

[Gordis]

By the way, you have deviated from your original statement, sisterandcousinandaunt. The question is not whether Frodo is a bore (all hobbits are dull, IMO, and he is little different), but whether he is a static character:

I think Tolkien's Frodo is kind of a straw man. That's not unusual for a writer of JRR's academic background. A classical "protagonist" should undergo a character change as a result of the circumstances of the book, and Frodo really doesn't, because he has more in common with medieval static heroes. By this standard, Sam is the evolving protagonist, although these literary quibbles are, imo, quibbles.

I would like to see in what way Sam was evolving. IMO he is the most static character of all - starts as a perfect bodyguard and ends as such. Not even the One ring was able to change him.