Journeys discussion thread

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

True, some -somewhat rather fundamental at times- issues Tolkien never mentioned. I'm often reminded of Elven agriculture that way. They've got to have some, but somehow the idea of Elves tending to fields and harvesting corn and hay, just doesn't ring true. It somehow doesn't quite fit with the image Tolkien created of the Elves.

Michael Martinez had a good essay on this - he had the elves of Mithlond as fisherman gutting fish in the market and other things that had to be happening, but just don't fit, somehow ... it's hard to picture elves doing laundry 'n stuff like that.

I would totally agree with this view in time of need or war. But on a leasurely trip around the 'known' world? It sounds like a very uncomfortable way of travel, especially considering Rivendell is a looong way off on foot. I could see some level of hunting/gathering, but to leave with barely the bare minimum seems so unpractical. (I tend to plan and prepare extensively for trips and such, so the idea of just winging it feels totally alien. But eh, these are Elves, not me going on a trip. I'm sure they can handle all this just fine.)

I thought of a compromise to get me over my aversion to elves and pack-horses. How about Cirdan sending some books and other things to Elrond? That would be a good reason for a pack-hor ... er, a horse-helper ...

I got the impression the Elves weren't camped too far away from the Thangorodrim at the time. But maybe Fingon took his harp along as diversion. So that when his disappearance was noticed, the Elves would say: "Naah, Fingon wouldn't go looking for trouble, he's got his harp with him, he's probably under some tree composing."

LOL! I never thought of that - his harp as cover to hide where he's going!

Why send Cirdan Lembas, the one guy in Middle-earth who's never going anywhere? Lembas isn't like birthday cookies, it's specifically designed to sustain long-time travel.

Yes, but people take off from Cirdan's place, like Gandy ... and our travellers. Maybe it's a kind of way-station for other places as well as sailing West. Or maybe the people that sail need the lembas!

Then why didn't she stuff Aragorn's pockets full with the stuff? Or do you mean he had it all along and didn't want to share? Naughty, naughty Aragorn.

Good thought - maybe they had a lover's quarrel before he left? Or maybe she just wanted to make darn sure that Gimli didn't get it?

Personally, I'd go with waybread. (Cram is, I thought, a human word, so our Elves probably didn't call it that way anyway.) There are several ways we can make Lembas for our five travellers plausible, like Willow's suggestions (I like the Gil-galad's mother idea).

How 'bout both? I seem to remember one Sil person who had an emergency pack of lembas for dire need. So they could have lots of waybread, and because of their rank/age, have a small amount of lembas.

But personally I think Lembas is over-rated, you see it everywhere, in almost every fan fic or RPG, at least one character has Lembas just like that. I'd like to be a little more original. Unless of course the majority overrules me, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Oh, I didn't know that - I guess I haven't read a lot. Waybread's fine with me, with some emergency lembas if we need to pull it out of our hats (or pockets). Is that ok, everyone?

[Rían]

Guys - could you please give me some feedback on my departure post? There hasn't been any feedback on the actual post (except for fun side-issues, like elven pack-horses and Gil-Galad's mommy), which worries me. Is it so bad that no one wants to comment? Or is it so awe-inspiring that it struck everyone speechless?

Seriously, this is a pivotal post in the RPG - they're leaving, and they're stating their motives/desires for the trip, and I really want to get it right. Are there too many quotes? I found and just loved that first quote and thought it was a perfect match in many levels (it inspired JRRT, it mentions a major Gondolin character, etc.) Is the post too maudlin? Or is it just totally elven with their love of language, etc.?

Please give me some feedback and help me get this post as good as possible!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I thought of a compromise to get me over my aversion to elves and pack-horses. How about Cirdan sending some books and other things to Elrond? That would be a good reason for a pack-hor ... er, a horse-helper ...

I don't mind the Elves travelling without a pack-horse but this idea could actually be an ideal way of introducing our five travellers to Elrond. How about the books are Elrond's own books, that Cirdan kept safe while Elrond was fighting in the war? Now that Cirdan has learned that Elrond has found a place to settle, he can send the books. They could be the first books in the fabled Rivendell library!

Good thought - maybe they had a lover's quarrel before he left? Or maybe she just wanted to make darn sure that Gimli didn't get it?

Hehe. That or he never had the heart to break the news to her that her cooking sucks and he dumped left all the Lembas in the first ravine he found.

How 'bout both? I seem to remember one Sil person who had an emergency pack of lembas for dire need. So they could have lots of waybread, and because of their rank/age, have a small amount of lembas.

There is Beleg, who received Lembas from Melian, which helped to support Turin's band of outlaws in a tight spot. That might be the situation you're thinking of.

As for our Elves, I'm not against it, but if we do, I think we must absolutely include some reminder of 'Gee, turns out Gilgalad's mom was a great cook after all.'

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Guys - could you please give me some feedback on my departure post? There hasn't been any feedback on the actual post (except for fun side-issues, like elven pack-horses and Gil-Galad's mommy), which worries me. Is it so bad that no one wants to comment? Or is it so awe-inspiring that it struck everyone speechless?

I'll be honest and say I'm not the greatest one to look at for feed-back. I love getting it, but I am very uninspirational when it comes to giving feed-back on art or writing myself. And I don't want to sound like a broken record each time with 'good post', or 'I liked that bit'. Don't get me wrong, I think every single one of the story-posts so far was good, but I'd feel fake saying it constantly, like a sycophant.

If there's something I think is wrong, or might be better differently, I will say it. And I will nearly always mention the things I found really, really interesting or really, really funny. But if I'm not saying anything, you can assume I approve.

[Willow Oran]

There aren't too many quotes, only one that isn't fully incorporated into the text and I really liked the use of elvish. It's their language, and it makes sense to use it. The heightening of tone came as a little bit of a jolt at first, but because you made use of the elvish and because the scene is the physical start of their geographical and emotional journeys it works.

Echoing LotR by having them set out at dusk instead of dawn was also a very good touch.

[Varnafindë]

Here's how I see your post:

It's a solemn post for a solemn occasion - this journey isn't just a fun walk for entertainment, it's a real quest for something worthwhile. It's emphasized by people gathering to see them off, and Cirdan giving them Elbereth's blessing - as if they are doing this journey on behalf of all those who might be thinking along the same lines, but perhaps drawing different conclusions.

Then the Nirnaeth veterans draw their swords according to their tradition, and pledge themselves to their mission - I especially like how, as they are all stating their motives, each of them takes the next person's hand one after the other. It shows some of their bonding as participants in the quest.

[Rían]

Thank you very much for your comments, Willow and Varna - sometimes my posts get too angsty, and I need a good fish-slap across the face from others.

Monty Python fish-slapping dance


It looks like I basically hit the right tone here, though. I might make some minor adjustments when I'm recovered enough (surgery in 14 hours!) because I think it's a really pivotal post, but I'm glad to hear that you think the general post is fine. Thanks again, it's very helpful!

And thanks for explaining your thoughts, Earniel - I know what you feel about saying "great post", "wonderful post" over and over. It gets just ... fake, even if you don't mean to be fake. That's why I try to pick out specifics when I do make a comment. I won't look out for many comments from you, since you've explained that you're just not a natural at reviewing. Give it a shot from time to time, though

bye!

[Willow Oran]

A lighter toned post - because there just aren't enough elfling vs. walrus encounters. Varna, I borrowed Arindis and Erufalion, let me know if you want me to edit their bits.

[Varnafindë]

Should the children clamor for one more story - and have Rameldir tell the story of how Erufailon saved Arindis from drowning (as he heard it from his mother)? I would have to work out the details, I only know that Erufailon did. So perhaps it would be better to leave that story for some other night, and perhaps just refer to it now, and have Rameldir promise to tell it later.

When I decided on that event, I didn't know how close family Arindis and Erufailon were, so I thought that accident and the safe outcome of it, was what made Arindis discover the lad. But now that they are closer family, they would have been in a group together even before that.

Still, that event would be a turning point in their friendship, something to make her admire him a lot, and make her father have an even higher opinion of him than before. When they get to Middle-earth, they go to different places, but when they meet again at that great feast - A... something - they realise that 'this is it', and decide to get married.

Would the walrus event be before or after the near drowning, do you think? They were 25 (A.) and 35 (E.) at the time, btw. When I decided that, I was seeing them as nearly teenagers at that age ... the ageing of Elflings is a complicated matter, is what I find. Their growing feelings for each other would work even if they were mentally children rather than teen-agers, I guess.

.....

Rereading your post, I get the impression that this happened after he saved her from drowning. That could be why they are such good friends now, not just cousins of whatever degree. Erufailon is trying to be responsible, even though he can't stop Glor when Aredhel challenges him ...

I didn't tell you that about them, did I?

[Willow Oran]

I went and read the stuff you have posted about them in the Writer's workshop forum. I'm not sure if you mentioned the near drowing bit there or not. I can edit in a mention of the story if you like, or, since I left my post pretty open ended, you can pick up from where it leaves off and either launch into another tale or send the children off to bed with the promise of the story later on.

As for the aging stuff:

If between the years of 1 and 50 we assume that elven children age at an approximate, comparative rate of three years to one, it generally works out.

Since crossing the Helcaraxe took about 33 years of the (at that point non-existent) sun, I took the ages you gave for them to be the ages they started out as.

I have Glor as 24 when they start and 40ish in the walrus incident with the idea in mind that it took place a few years after a massive accident with un-stable ice in which his parents, Elenwe and quite a few others were drowned/crushed/frozen. Now, despite Tolkien's insistence on describing every noble elf and elf-maid as 'tall,' the limited resources they would have had while crossing the ice don't strike me as enough to fuel adolescent growth spurts. So although the four younger elves are mentally adolescents in my last post, I envisioned Erufalion, Idril, Arindis, and Glorfindel especially, to be still fairly childsized.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I went and read the stuff you have posted about them in the Writer's workshop forum. I'm not sure if you mentioned the near drowing bit there or not. I can edit in a mention of the story if you like, or, since I left my post pretty open ended, you can pick up from where it leaves off and either launch into another tale or send the children off to bed with the promise of the story later on.

What about I wait see whether the story gets written fairly soon? In that case I can tell it, or otherwise I can promise them some more later on. I suppose we can wait for a couple of days.
I might have to do a similar thing to what you did, I guess - rather than tell the story, have him relive the memory. Not of what happened, in his case, but of asking his mother about it when she told him.
And I didn't mention the near drowning in that forum, but perhaps it has been mentioned in one of the threads I linked to.

As for the aging stuff:
If between the years of 1 and 50 we assume that elven children age at an approximate, comparative rate of three years to one, it generally works out.

That makes sense.

Since crossing the Helcaraxe took about 33 years of the (at that point non-existent) sun, I took the ages you gave for them to be the ages they started out as.

The crossing taking 33 years was news to me.
I've been going by a chronology that someone compiled, which talked only of two or three years. See how that might make a difference?
I'm fine with the correction, though. Which HoME volume haven't I read yet?

I have Glor as 24 when they start and 40ish in the walrus incident with the idea in mind that it took place a few years after a massive accident with un-stable ice in which his parents, Elenwe and quite a few others were drowned/crushed/frozen. Now, despite Tolkien's insistence on describing every noble elf and elf-maid as 'tall,' the limited resources they would have had while crossing the ice don't strike me as enough to fuel adolescent growth spurts. So although the four younger elves are mentally adolescents in my last post, I envisioned Erufalion, Idril, Arindis, and Glorfindel especially, to be still fairly childsized.

Glor is nearly the same age as Arindis, then. And Erufailon would be nearly 50 and about to come of age soon. (Or 'reach his majority', which is a term I've seen in many fanfics - is it a better term?) But I agree that he and the others wouldn't be as tall as they would have been at that age if they had stayed in Valinor under normal Elven conditions. But mentally adolescent.

And that massive accident you mention, would then have been the same as the one where Arindis was in trouble. Their friendship would deepen after such an incident.

[Willow Oran]

I've been using Morgoth's Ring as my primary source... The crossing did take two to three years, but years of the Trees, one of which is supposed to be equivalent to about 9.6 solar years.

I made the conversion because I'm assuming the elven growth rate is better rendered in solar years, despite the initial lack of a sun; possibly the elves measured time by movements of constellations and later on those measurements synced up with the sun's cycle.

Regardless, the one time Tolkien talks about elven growth rates he makes a direct comparison to mortal child development and that just wouldn't make sense if he was in the habit of using completely seperate measures of time for the two races.

Glorfindel will be very interested to hear the story, should Rameldir chose to tell it. He was in a bit of trouble himself at the time, so it'll be somewhat new to him.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I've been using Morgoth's Ring as my primary source... The crossing did take two to three years, but years of the Trees, one of which is supposed to be equivalent to about 9.6 solar years.

I think that list I use, just put those years next to each other, saying which is which, without giving equivalents. It gets a bit confusing at times ...
I've also been reading Morgoth's Ring.

Glorfindel will be very interested to hear the story, should Rameldir chose to tell it. He was in a bit of trouble himself at the time, so it'll be somewhat new to him.

Wouldn't Arindis and Erufailon have told their friends? If you need him to be ignorant about it, I could try to find some reason why they hadn't - but he would be interested anyway.
Perhaps they had never told the details.

[Willow Oran]

Would they have had candid conversations about their various near death experiences when the ice gave way?
The accident may be a romantic (if terrifying) story to Erufalion and Arindis, but that same accident orphaned Glor. I think he would certainly know about it and have heard the story right away, but in a 'Thank Illuvatar they aren't dead too!' sort of context...

[Earniel]

Fun post, Willow! Indeed, the world needs more elfing versus walrus tales!

As it happens I was preparing a post for Hallindel in which she remembers a similar incident with a bear while hunting. Now I feel like copying you, so I'm going to shelf that post-idea for a later time.

[Willow Oran]

Aww...

I wouldn't mind such parallels, but it's your call if you want to save it for later.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Would they have had candid conversations about their various near death experiences when the ice gave way?
The accident may be a romantic (if terrifying) story to Erufalion and Arindis, but that same accident orphaned Glor. I think he would certainly know about it and have heard the story right away, but in a 'Thank Illuvatar they aren't dead too!' sort of context...

(my emphasis)

Ah - I had missed that. They might have been less inclined to indulge in the details around him then.
Or do you think they would have had those conversations, and shared details?
And how much does Rameldir know about Glor's side of it? I suppose his mother would have told him of others who were less fortunate than herself ...

[Willow Oran]

You know... I have no idea. I suppose it depends on just how the accident happened.

[Varnafindë]

I'll try to work on it and see what I can find out (or we'll be working together) ...

If I need the children, it would be good to know their genders.
Lhunril is a girl, and Dorochu and Idhor are boys.
What about Faunuial, Naethbor, and Eirien?

[Willow Oran]

Eirien and Faunuial are girls, Naethbor is male. The only thing I know of their ages is that Lhunril is the youngest.

[Earniel]

Posted. I'm out of rhythm for writing. Must remedy by practise.