Journeys discussion thread

[Willow Oran]

Extra long post by me and Varna, about half from each of us. Enjoy!

[Earniel]

Nice. Did Elrond just make the choice for Glorfindel? Sneaky fellow!

I have to say I like the idea of a more fragile Glorfindel with doubts and things to deal with. It'll be interesting to see if this trip helps him resolve them, or at least partially.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Nice. Did Elrond just make the choice for Glorfindel? Sneaky fellow!

I have to say I like the idea of a more fragile Glorfindel with doubts and things to deal with. It'll be interesting to see if this trip helps him resolve them, or at least partially.

Sneaky indeed - and he took Rameldir completely by surprise

The more fragile Glorfindel is very different from the legend hero Rameldir has always heard about. I suppose the first meeting between them a hundred years ago would have been quite something. Rameldir would be quite awestruck and feel like a ten year old boy again.

Perhaps Willow and I ought to play it between us in PMs and work it in as a flashback at some point if it makes good reading.

[Earniel]

I suppose it will come up again when the Mithlond characters reach Rivendell. Then Glorfindel will likely find him faced again with more characters that will look up to him since, as Gondolin survivors, they owe him their lives as well. I wonder how all the characters will react to meeting a living legend.

[Varnafindë]

Very true - and most of them were only teen-agers when he was killed, right?
They would have the same connection to him as Rameldir, of only having known about him as one of the adults, and then hearing about him as a legend.

I believe it would be different if he met with one of his fellow adults from Gondolin. But perhaps none of those are still around in Middle-earth. Glor is left with all the young fans

[Willow Oran]

It's possible that Pengolod and Galdor are still around at this point. But yeah, he is pretty much stuck with all the young fans who I am assuming will at some point pester him for stories...

[Rían]

Nice post, guys! The second-to-last paragraph was esp. good, with the idea of half-familiar faces (isn't that frustrating?! I have that problem! I have trouble identifying faces out of their normal context. How frustrating that must be for Glor!!) and a bit of guilt over getting out of some of the suffering - very interesting concepts to explore! And the idea of him blushing because he didn't quite have full control over his body yet ... *imagines him accidentally burping at a banquet * "whoops! Sorry, that one escaped me - don't quite have full control yet ... "

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

I believe it would be different if he met with one of his fellow adults from Gondolin. But perhaps none of those are still around in Middle-earth. Glor is left with all the young fans

There are at least two left - Tyaron and Alagos were full-grown men and honkin' bad kick-butt warriors at the time of the FoG (yes, I know that "everyone" makes their people really good, but hey, you got Glor ). I haven't developed all the details, but I've always imagined them as nobles attached to the king's house before Tuor's arrival, then transferred to Tuor's house because of their blood and skills. I'll work out all the details as the need arises, but they are men and fighters that even Glorfy would know and respect. In fact, I've also pictured them fighting at the Nirnaeth, and seeing Hurin and Huor's last stand before they retreated with Turgon, so they are very old indeed! Do you want Glor involved with that battle, BTW?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Sneaky indeed - and he took Rameldir completely by surprise

The more fragile Glorfindel is very different from the legend hero Rameldir has always heard about. I suppose the first meeting between them a hundred years ago would have been quite something. Rameldir would be quite awestruck and feel like a ten year old boy again.

Perhaps Willow and I ought to play it between us in PMs and work it in as a flashback at some point if it makes good reading.

I like the flashback idea - feel free to pursue anything interesting like that in a flashback. A big part of this RPG concept is memories, and how they are so vivid for Elves.

ps- has anyone else ever had that goofy idea about the ocean taking a break when no one was looking? We've done lots of beach camping, and darn if every time I wake up, the waves are still at it! I've always imagined that they keep a watch out, and if all the campers are asleep, they take a little break ...

[Rían]

OK, got my on-the-road post up and edited. Earniel, anything for your guys? Let me know In fact, just edit it in, in case I can't get to it.

My foot surgery is on Thursday, so this will be the last post for a while - sorry, I'm going to have to probably break my own 2-week rule, as it is rather major surgery But I should be able to read your posts after a bit, and I'll be composing in my head (under the influence of pain-killers! )

Namárië!

[Willow Oran]

Your foot surgery coincides with my finals week. No worries if you can't post for a bit. Just rest and feel better.

There are at least two left - Tyaron and Alagos were full-grown men and honkin' bad kick-butt warriors at the time of the FoG (yes, I know that "everyone" makes their people really good, but hey, you got Glor ). I haven't developed all the details, but I've always imagined them as nobles attached to the king's house before Tuor's arrival, then transferred to Tuor's house because of their blood and skills. I'll work out all the details as the need arises, but they are men and fighters that even Glorfy would know and respect. In fact, I've also pictured them fighting at the Nirnaeth, and seeing Hurin and Huor's last stand before they retreated with Turgon, so they are very old indeed! Do you want Glor involved with that battle, BTW?

Glor rather has to be involved in the Nirnaeth. Tolkien has him covering the retreat on (I think) the left flank of Turgon's army and I added in his bio that he gets some sort of nasty injury in the process. He might be too busy or too in pain to actually see Hurin and Hour's last stand, but he'd definitely be there.
Are you imagining your guys as born before or after the move from Nevrast to Gondolin?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Your foot surgery coincides with my finals week. No worries if you can't post for a bit. Just rest and feel better.

thanks, and good luck on your finals! *doesn't miss finals at all!!!*

Glor rather has to be involved in the Nirnaeth. Tolkien has him covering the retreat on (I think) the left flank of Turgon's army and I added in his bio that he gets some sort of nasty injury in the process. He might be too busy or too in pain to actually see Hurin and Hour's last stand, but he'd definitely be there.

Oh, I forgot that - for some reason, I'm not a huge Glorfindel fan - I mean, the guy's totally awesome, but I've always liked Fingon better! *swats away Earniel* I didn't remember him in the Nirnaeth - I'll have to re-read it while I'm stuck in bed with my foot up. That will be interesting to have the Nirnaeth vets sharing memories ...

Are you imagining your guys as born before or after the move from Nevrast to Gondolin?

For my first incarnation of the characters, Alagos was born on the way (it was a wild, windy night - hence "Alagos" - "windstorm"). I haven't decided for this RPG, though. Do you have any preferences? I really don't care too much either way.

[Willow Oran]

I had got the impression of after given how attached to the memory of it they are... but they're your characters!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

OK, got my on-the-road post up and edited. Earniel, anything for your guys? Let me know In fact, just edit it in, in case I can't get to it.

No, I'm fine. Just one thing, though, they did bring at least pack-horses with them, I hope? Travel may be a little slower otherwise.

Good luck with the foot surgery, I hope you're back on your feet again soon! (Got to see the skin specialist on Thursday too, but I hope that in my case, we're past the cutting stage now! )

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Oh, I forgot that - for some reason, I'm not a huge Glorfindel fan - I mean, the guy's totally awesome, but I've always liked Fingon better! *swats away Earniel*

You can keep Fingon, it's Tuor we were squabbling about, remember?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

No, I'm fine. Just one thing, though, they did bring at least pack-horses with them, I hope? Travel may be a little slower otherwise.

Ugh - elves ... and a pack-horse? I can't recall ever hearing about a pack-horse with elves. I think we might need to pull a little unreality here and say no pack-horse - opinions? Maybe they had a supply of lembas? My elves are pretty high-up by blood and by age and could very well rank getting some lembas, if we allow them made by the elves at Mithlond.

Good luck with the foot surgery, I hope you're back on your feet again soon! (Got to see the skin specialist on Thursday too, but I hope that in my case, we're past the cutting stage now! )

Thanks, and ditto!

You can keep Fingon, it's Tuor we were squabbling about, remember?

Funny, I forgot - we haven't fought for a while, I guess I had forgotten it was my human crush we fought over, not my elven crush

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I had got the impression of after given how attached to the memory of it they are... but they're your characters!

Good point - although I think that even if they were in Nevrast, they'd still love Gondolin more It's just such a totally kewl place!!!!

(I bet they had pack-horses for THAT trip ...)

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Ugh - elves ... and a pack-horse? I can't recall ever hearing about a pack-horse with elves. I think we might need to pull a little unreality here and say no pack-horse - opinions? Maybe they had a supply of lembas? My elves are pretty high-up by blood and by age and could very well rank getting some lembas, if we allow them made by the elves at Mithlond.

It would rather surprise me if the Elves never ever used pack-horses as well. True, they're never actually mentioned in the stories to my knowledge. But riding horses were used and I sort of assumed pack-animals (very well looked after of course) would therefore not be a leap too far. And five people on a long journey would have a reasonable amount of luggage with them. But hey, story-wise we can go both ways, whatever we decide feasonable for this game.

As for the lembas, giving Lembas to travellers was the sole right of the Queen of the region, if I'm not mistaken. In the Silmarillion and assorted tales, I believe only Melian is seen handing out Lembas, and receiving it is a high honour.

Galadriel wasn't a queen perse, but her kinship to several kings and being the Lady of Lothlorien, may have elevated her to a similar rank. But no one in Mithlond would be allowed to hand out Lembas, if they even knew the recipe. I highly doubt even Arwen knew it or was qualified to make and distribute it.

I fear our Elves will have to do with ordinary cram. (Although I daresay the ordinary Elven variety would still be better than the cram that Gimli thought of when the Fellowship left Lothlorien.)

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It would rather surprise me if the Elves never ever used pack-horses as well. True, they're never actually mentioned in the stories to my knowledge. But riding horses were used and I sort of assumed pack-animals (very well looked after of course) would therefore not be a leap too far. And five people on a long journey would have a reasonable amount of luggage with them. But hey, story-wise we can go both ways, whatever we decide feasonable for this game.

I think the whole question of elvish travel habits was one of those interesting ideas with awkward consequences (like Ringwraiths and water) that JRRT avoided by not mentioning much about it. They just seem to set off without any trouble a'tall (or much luggage, either). The feeling that this supports is his idea that the elves are more one with nature (like riding horses without saddles) - they can just pick up and go and survive easily, while us poor humans have to grunt and groan and pack up pack-horses. I think it can be somewhat reconciled by his concept of the toughness of the Eldar - how hard it is to kill them; how quickly they heal; things like that. I've always had in the back of my head that elves could go for a journey without a pack animal because they could almost sort of go into "maintenance" mode - live off of their strength, so to speak, along with "food of opportunity" (i.e., berries, nuts, etc.) - and then just "tank up" at their next destination.

Or maybe Fingon took a pack-horse with him when he went to get Maedhros and it just wasn't mentioned! (but of course he was only one person, and setting out on a desperate journey ... but the sensible fellow DID take his harp! Can you imagine the packing? "OK, heading out for a desperate attempt and almost certain death - gotta travel light and only take the bare essentials - let's see: sword, dagger, cloak, food - OK, all set! *gasp* Oh wait, I almost forgot my harp!!! " )

Anyway, they're heading to Rivendell, it's spring - I think we could support the idea of no pack-horse and them living light as far as food, etc. on the journey. Let's toss the idea around and see what the consensus is.

As for the lembas, giving Lembas to travellers was the sole right of the Queen of the region, if I'm not mistaken. In the Silmarillion and assorted tales, I believe only Melian is seen handing out Lembas, and receiving it is a high honour.

Galadriel wasn't a queen perse, but her kinship to several kings and being the Lady of Lothlorien, may have elevated her to a similar rank. But no one in Mithlond would be allowed to hand out Lembas, if they even knew the recipe. I highly doubt even Arwen knew it or was qualified to make and distribute it.

Well, Cirdan is a pretty special character - I bet Galadriel has been sending him some lembas for Christmas over the years (instead of fruitcake) so he'd have a supply of his own Seriously, I know that lembas are special, but so is Cirdan, and I thought he might have access to some. But I think it would probably be better to go with your idea and some lesser form of lembas, but better than cram.

I think that Arwen would certainly be qualified and capable of making lembas, though.

I fear our Elves will have to do with ordinary cram. (Although I daresay the ordinary Elven variety would still be better than the cram that Gimli thought of when the Fellowship left Lothlorien.)

Sounds good - I suppose we can just call it waybread or something - cram sounds so ... un-elvish!

So, btw - was my post too sentimental/angsty/mawkish? I stumbled across that Earendil quote from the Old English poems, and that gave me the idea for the post.

[Willow Oran]

Well, Cirdan is a pretty special character - I bet Galadriel has been sending him some lembas for Christmas over the years (instead of fruitcake) so he'd have a supply of his own Seriously, I know that lembas are special, but so is Cirdan, and I thought he might have access to some. But I think it would probably be better to go with your idea and some lesser form of lembas, but better than cram.

Or we could assume an un-mentioned high-ranking female to perform such functions. There's no particular reason to think that Cirdan wouldn't have a female relation to run his household or that Gil-Galad's mother might not be still alive.
Given the amount of ceremony when they left, the journey might have warranted some lembas.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think the whole question of elvish travel habits was one of those interesting ideas with awkward consequences (like Ringwraiths and water) that JRRT avoided by not mentioning much about it.

True, some -somewhat rather fundamental at times- issues Tolkien never mentioned. I'm often reminded of Elven agriculture that way. They've got to have some, but somehow the idea of Elves tending to fields and harvesting corn and hay, just doesn't ring true. It somehow doesn't quite fit with the image Tolkien created of the Elves.

I've always had in the back of my head that elves could go for a journey without a pack animal because they could almost sort of go into "maintenance" mode - live off of their strength, so to speak, along with "food of opportunity" (i.e., berries, nuts, etc.) - and then just "tank up" at their next destination.

I would totally agree with this view in time of need or war. But on a leasurely trip around the 'known' world? It sounds like a very uncomfortable way of travel, especially considering Rivendell is a looong way off on foot. I could see some level of hunting/gathering, but to leave with barely the bare minimum seems so unpractical. (I tend to plan and prepare extensively for trips and such, so the idea of just winging it feels totally alien. But eh, these are Elves, not me going on a trip. I'm sure they can handle all this just fine.)

Or maybe Fingon took a pack-horse with him when he went to get Maedhros and it just wasn't mentioned! (but of course he was only one person, and setting out on a desperate journey ... but the sensible fellow DID take his harp! Can you imagine the packing? "OK, heading out for a desperate attempt and almost certain death - gotta travel light and only take the bare essentials - let's see: sword, dagger, cloak, food - OK, all set! *gasp* Oh wait, I almost forgot my harp!!! " )

I got the impression the Elves weren't camped too far away from the Thangorodrim at the time. But maybe Fingon took his harp along as diversion. So that when his disappearance was noticed, the Elves would say: "Naah, Fingon wouldn't go looking for trouble, he's got his harp with him, he's probably under some tree composing."

Well, Cirdan is a pretty special character - I bet Galadriel has been sending him some lembas for Christmas over the years (instead of fruitcake) so he'd have a supply of his own Seriously, I know that lembas are special, but so is Cirdan, and I thought he might have access to some. But I think it would probably be better to go with your idea and some lesser form of lembas, but better than cram.

Why send Cirdan Lembas, the one guy in Middle-earth who's never going anywhere? Lembas isn't like birthday cookies, it's specifically designed to sustain long-time travel.

I think that Arwen would certainly be qualified and capable of making lembas, though.

Then why didn't she stuff Aragorn's pockets full with the stuff? Or do you mean he had it all along and didn't want to share? Naughty, naughty Aragorn.

Sounds good - I suppose we can just call it waybread or something - cram sounds so ... un-elvish!

Personally, I'd go with waybread. (Cram is, I thought, a human word, so our Elves probably didn't call it that way anyway.) There are several ways we can make Lembas for our five travellers plausible, like Willow's suggestions (I like the Gil-galad's mother idea).

But personally I think Lembas is over-rated, you see it everywhere, in almost every fan fic or RPG, at least one character has Lembas just like that. I'd like to be a little more original. Unless of course the majority overrules me, I'm perfectly fine with that.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Or we could assume an un-mentioned high-ranking female to perform such functions. There's no particular reason to think that Cirdan wouldn't have a female relation to run his household or that Gil-Galad's mother might not be still alive.

For some reason, the idea of Gil-Galad's mother strikes me as funny ...

"Now Gil-Galad, dear, don't forget your cloak - it's cold outside! And I packed some lembas for you in your lunchbox!"