Where do dragons come from?

[Nimrodel]

Maybe some of the more learned members can answer this for me. Were dragons once maiar, or were they bred by Morgoth, and if they were bred by him, what were they corruptions of? Thanks for everyone's help in advance.

[ann]

In the Silmarillion it says "Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons, and dragons..." So, I think Morgoth corrupted the Great Worms for his own evil purposes. Hope that's helpful!

[Nimrodel]

thanks for that ann, but where in the Sillmarillion, or in fact when in ME have the great worms been mentioned? Its been a while since I've read the Sil, but there are worms in ME? Great big worms? Well then, I've learnt something new today.

[ann]

In the Hobbit on Thror's Map it mentions the Far North, "the Grey Mountains and the Withered Hearth whence came the Great Worms." In the Silmarillion the first of the dragons of Morgoth was Glaurung, aka the father of dragons, aka the Great Worm and the Worm of Morgoth.

[Captain Stern]

The Dragons in their begining were either Kelvar ( animals of various kinds ) later corrupted and 'improved' by Morgoth or creatures of Morgoth's own devising just like the kelvar were creatures made by Yavanna.

In any case they ended up being huge vessels of power 'filled with the malice of Morgoth.'

[Finmandos12]

The Dragons in their begining were either Kelvar ( animals of various kinds ) later corrupted and 'improved' by Morgoth or creatures of Morgoth's own devising just like the kelvar were creatures made by Yavanna.

Don't you remember Stern? Morgoth can't make anything of his own, he can only distort other beings.

[Captain Stern]

Don't you remember Stern? Morgoth can't make anything of his own, he can only distort other beings.

I know he can't, but if Yavannah can bring kelvar to the world then MOrgoth can certinly do the same thing. Kelvar and Olvar weren't considered creations.

[Comic Book Guy]

They are often known as Worms because most of them don't have wings and crawl on their belly, unlike the typical fantasy dragon.

[Sakata]

Where do dragons come from? aww how cute, okay when a mommy dragon and a daddy dragon... hehe just fooling with ya

[markedel]

One would assume Valanorian creations are sanctioned by Eru. Morgoth didn't get any such blessing.

[Ñólendil]

In The Silmarillion and (I believe) the Narn I Hin Hurin published in Unfinished Tales, it says Glaurung was filled with the evil spirit and will of his master. This is one of those examples of Morgoth disseminating himself throughout Arda. Like Sauron would later do with the Olog-hai, the Dragons were able to move about and live because they were filled with a part of a living spirit. It's the bodies of the Dragons that are shrouded in mystery.

I know he can't, but if Yavannah can bring kelvar to the world then MOrgoth can certinly do the same thing. Kelvar and Olvar weren't considered creations.

Yavanna did not make or create the Kelvar. Her interests lied rather in the Olvar (and the Eagles only), and it was chiefly through her that the 'growing things with roots in the earth' were brought about into the Music. Even so, she did not even create the Olvar. Everything in the Music was made True and given real existence by the One. The One created the Olvar, and the Kelvar. This is true even though you could say Yavanna brought it about -- the Olvar anyway. Oromë was the Vala with the interest in animals. None of the Valar were able to create. They could only sub-create, i.e., make. They could not create living things from nothing. Aulë tried and it didn't work, not until Eru took pity on him and gave his makings true life.

[Nimrodel]

Thanks everyone for your input. You helped satiate my curiosity.

[Comic Book Guy]

Of major interest though, in Unfinished Tales Thorin states that Dragonets (Infant Dragon) hatch from eggs, in an argument about Bilbo's ability as a thief.

[Captain Stern]

Originally posted by Inoldonil: Yavanna did not make or create the Kelvar. Her interests lied rather in the Olvar (and the Eagles only), and it was chiefly through her that the 'growing things with roots in the earth' were brought about into the Music. Even so, she did not even create the Olvar. Everything in the Music was made True and given real existence by the One. The One created the Olvar, and the Kelvar. This is true even though you could say Yavanna brought it about

Forgive me if I thought diferently, it doesn't make a distinction in The Silmarillion:

Then the seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small mosses and grasses and great ferns, and trees whose tops were crowned with clouds as they were living mountains, but whose feet were wraped in a green twilight. And beasts came forth and dwelt in the grassy plains, or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the shadows of the woods. As yet no flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for these things waited still their time in the bosom of Yavanna; but wealth there was of her imagining, and nowhere more rich than in the midpost parts of the Earth, where the light of both the Lamps met and blended.

I'll order those damn History of Middle Earth books tomorow.

[Twilight]

It is clear that Morgoth can't create. Even to make a new form of animal or similar being would have to be done with permission from the One. Other examples of Morgoths work are known, so we can tell how far he can corrupt from an origional state. He was able to turn corrupted elves into orcs. It is possible that he did the same with dragons. Maybe he started from a similar reptiliam being and started corruption from there. That would give a new form of creature that is capable of breeding, just like the reptilian creature that it origionaly started as.

[bropous]

Well again, there had to have been some variety of "original reptilian stock" for Morgoth to corrupt into dragons, because there also had to be an original to corrupt into the pterodactyl-thingies that the Nazgul flew.

There are a couple of dragons in the Silmarillion, and apparently, some of the larger, older and fiercer dragons of old could have even have destroyed the One Ring with their fires.

[Ñólendil]

"I'll order those damn History of Middle Earth books tomorow."

My information was gotten from The Silmarillion and Letters. Look in the Valaquenta, you will see that the Kelvar are Oromë's interest.

"because there also had to be an original to corrupt into the pterodactyl-thingies that the Nazgul flew."

Not necessarily. The pterodactyl creatures may not have been physically corrupted (they were obviously wicked and foul creatures). Tolkien said that he introduced them in such a way so as to make it possible for them to be the last survivors of a prehistoric era; i.e., dinosaurs.

"apparently some of the larger, older and fiercer dragons of old could have even have destroyed the One Ring with their fires."

What gives you that impression? Gandalf said 'not even a Dragon's fire could harm that Ring'.

[Captain Stern]

Originally posted by Ñólendil: What gives you that impression? Gandalf said 'not even a Dragon's fire could harm that Ring'.

Actualy, Gandalf tells Frodo that Ancalagon the Black's breath was hot enought to melt theOne ring.

P.S Ñólendil, you are Inoldonil right?

[Ñólendil]

Maybe he says both. Anyway Ancalagon the Black was the greatest of the Dragons (according to The Silmarillion). Yeah, I'm Inoldonil.

[Lightice]

Gandalf said something like "Some say, that fire of dragon could destroy a Ring of Power, but there's no dragon on Earth, whose fire would be still hot enough, and there has never been a dragon, who could had destroyed the One Ring. Not even Ancalagon the Black could had done it, as this Ring was created by Sauron himself.