Orcs: End of third age and beyond

[Tinman]

So i have seen a few sources that state that orcs had no independent will. They were, in fact, inherently evil. Some people don't like the idea of any species that has no will but an evil one, but the fact that after sauron was finally destroyed at the end of the third age, the orcs all went insane, is an indication that he orcs had only one will, Saurons. When he was gone, they went insane, like a bee hive that has lost its queen.

However, i have seen many references stating that the 4th age was not without hardship. That many places had to be "reclaimed"... moria for example. Reclaimed from what? Are we to assume that not all orcs lost their minds and died? Maybe they just had a temporary horror of having no will of their own and eventually regained composure? Many references in many of tolkiens works seem to indicate that the world has many evils, and not all of them are in league with sauron. If not orcs, perhaps some of these unallied evils were still major threats... but what would these evils be? Certainly not orcs, uruks, or trolls, since they all seemed to function on the same rules...

Any one have any idea's or theories? How about direct tolkien quotes that clear this up?

[Earniel]

I do think orcs had an independant will, just one that delighted in destruction and mayhem. But Sauron's control over them molded them into a more efficient armed force. Orcs alone, following their own desires, or following their different chieftains, were no doubt still dangerous. An unguided missile is still dangerous, but a properly guided one can cause more damage, so it was IMO with orcs.

I can imagine the orcs to be very confused and baffled when Sauron's hold over them vanished so quickly, and here they were still on the battle-field without a guiding force. But I doubt that feeling would have been permanent. I gather the orcs recovered quickly enough but left Mordor for what it was, and returned to their own haunts in mountain caves and other dark places. I don't think they lost any fighting skill, but without Sauron, they weren't coordinated or organised, and just went their own way, becoming small pockets of bad news, but more easily routed than when under Sauron's command.

[Butterbeer]

I think the theory pure poppycock

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I think the theory pure poppycock

Which theory?

[Olmer]

Both theories.

The story was written by hobbits, who saw very few orcs up close, so, theirs judgment and description of the orcs is somewhat lopsided.
A confused and insane race wouldn't be having it's own history, folklore, medicine and, o yes, a magic, wouldn't be good at smithery, mining , building tunnels and invention of some machinery.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Both theories.

The story was written by hobbits, who saw very few orcs up close, so, theirs judgment and description of the orcs is somewhat lopsided.
A confused and insane race wouldn't be having it's own history, folklore, medicine and, o yes, a magic, wouldn't be good at smithery, mining , building tunnels and invention of some machinery.

So, you think hobbits are, in a sense, racist...

good theory.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

It isn't that they had no free will. It is that they had no free will to oppose their master. They were natural-born thralls. With a master to guide them, they were bound to his will. Without a master, they were free to act within their own natural abilities and desires.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

A confused and insane race wouldn't be having it's own history, folklore, medicine and, o yes, a magic, wouldn't be good at smithery, mining , building tunnels and invention of some machinery.

The question remains however, if they actually had folklore, medicine, magic, good skills in smith-work, mining, building, inventing if Sauron hadn't taught them all that. There is nothing to indicate orcs even came up with all that themselves. And once without Sauron's influence, whether those skills would be maintained at a sufficient level.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The question remains however, if they actually had folklore, medicine, magic, good skills in smith-work, mining, building, inventing if Sauron hadn't taught them all that. There is nothing to indicate orcs even came up with all that themselves. And once without Sauron's influence, whether those skills would be maintained at a sufficient level.

Or even more so, if Sauron hadn't 'taught' them anything, but just instoilled with his magic.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I don't think there is much doubt that the orcs had abilities of their own. Sauron, and before him Morgoth, didn't micromanage every last one of them individually and simultaneously but as needed and more often as a group. The few private orc conversations we have record of are evidence enough of that.

They weren't like the dwarves were before their adoption by Eru.

[Olmer]

There is nothing to indicate orcs even came up with all that themselves.

There is a lot of indications that Elves were not born with great skills either, all crafts they learned from Valar. So the same question about the elves is remaining: are they so great without an outside influence? Seems later they "dwindled" so drastically that had to rely only on magic rings. On the contrary the Orcs were learning and slowly advancing.

And there is Tolkien's words pointing out that they were able to invent and to make things.
They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them
"The Hobbit."

Gandalf has mentioned that he once knew every Orcs spell. So, they were familiar with magic too.

So, you think hobbits are, in a sense, racist...

In a sense, yes.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

There is a lot of indications that Elves were not born with great skills either, all crafts they learned from Valar. So the same question about the elves is remaining: are they so great without an outside influence? Seems later they "dwindled" so drastically that had to rely only on magic rings. On the contrary the Orcs were learning and slowly advancing.

I think the elves are in a different position, but I'm not going to go further into that now since we're talking about orcs here, not elves. (I'd have thought you, Olmer, would have preferred the topic without any mention of those pesky elves. )

They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them."The Hobbit."

Let me highlight two other parts that are also of importance in the characterisation of orcs, IMO.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Quote:

In a sense, yes.

Oh, I don't think they were so much racist as xenophobic.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Gandalf has mentioned that he once knew every Orcs spell. So, they were familiar with magic too.

Where was this?

[Olmer]

At the Door.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Oh, I don't think they were so much racist as xenophobic.

That's the Right word! Thanks!

[Olmer]

Let me highlight two other parts that are also of importance in the characterisation of orcs, IMO.

The Pyramids were not built by the ancient architects themselves, but nevertheless they manifest the great intelligence of Egyptians.

[Earniel]

I don't quite get that comparison. Please elaborate?

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't quite get that comparison. Please elaborate?

He's either compairing orcs to the jews, or saying sauron was an alien.

[Draken]

I think, whether directed by Morgoth first and then Sauron, or whether they had it in them inherently, orcs are quite inventive. After all, they try and get a Middle Earth Industrial Revolution going. Which of course Tolkien wants to show as a Bad Thing.

I think the interactions between various orc groupings in LOTR show us that they are tribal to the extreme with no intention of co-operating unless bullied by one all powerful uber-bully such as Sauron.

With Sauron's passing I always imagined them in permanent retreat, squabbling among themselves while more organised humans pick them off one tribe at a time.